Welcome to the R1b and Subclades Haplogroup Project Forum

[Stevo]

Beer you can chew on! Yea

It's nutritious and delicious!

Made for R1bs by R1bs!

[davis1946]

New SNP Results

Just received my cousin's SNP results in this batch. Quite early. Due 8/21.

Here are the results

R1b1c
M173+ M207+ M269+ M343+ P25+ M126- M18- M222- M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-


Here is a portion of the email today from FTDNA:

"Remember the Haplogroup classification WILL change as the tree evolves,
however the test that you are positive for will NOT change. For example
we recently re-assigned P-25 from R1b to R1b1, as M343 (now R1b) is the
node of the tree in-between R1 and R1b1. We will update your specific
Haplogroup definition automatically in the future as the tree evolves and
in agreement with scientific papers."

Any input on these results would be much appreciated. What I am confused about is that they show P25+, yet I was told the sample was M343+, P25-, an unusual result, causing this sample to be sent to the science testing lab. And, in the meantime this SNP testing was being given complementary due to the length of time involved in testing for the unusal M343+, P25-. Does this mean the P25- reading before was incorrect? Or they changed their testing method?

Please let me know if I have this right, according to the SNP Tree at www.isogg.org I have results outstanding for 1(M37), 4(M153) and 5(M160) ?? Thanks.

I am in the Davis Surname Project /YSearch User ID #4TWBD
My immigrant ancestor and country of origin is unknown.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[Rick]

Just received my cousin's SNP results in this batch. Quite early. Due 8/21.

Here are the results

R1b1c
M173+ M207+ M269+ M343+ P25+ M126- M18- M222- M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-


Here is a portion of the email today from FTDNA:

"Remember the Haplogroup classification WILL change as the tree evolves,
however the test that you are positive for will NOT change. For example
we recently re-assigned P-25 from R1b to R1b1, as M343 (now R1b) is the
node of the tree in-between R1 and R1b1. We will update your specific
Haplogroup definition automatically in the future as the tree evolves and
in agreement with scientific papers."

Any input on these results would be much appreciated. What I am confused about is that they show P25+, yet I was told the sample was M343+, P25-, an unusual result, causing this sample to be sent to the science testing lab. And, in the meantime this SNP testing was being given complementary due to the length of time involved in testing for the unusal M343+, P25-. Does this mean the P25- reading before was incorrect? Or they changed their testing method?

Please let me know if I have this right, according to the SNP Tree at www.isogg.org I have results outstanding for 1(M37), 4(M153) and 5(M160) ?? Thanks.

I am in the Davis Surname Project /YSearch User ID #4TWBD
My immigrant ancestor and country of origin is unknown.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Probably your best bet is to ask FTDNA about the discrepancy between the original P25- and the new P25+ result. I think Eileen Krause is the correct POC there for testing-related questions. She's always been very responsive and helpful when I've had questions. [email protected]

I was glad to see your P66 result reported. That's the 2nd I've seen today. Maybe good news for those of us who have been waiting for ours.

Also, yes it looks like the other SNPs you named are the correct missing ones. Rather curious though since I hadn't heard of previous problems with M153 or M160. M37 is the other one (with P66) that a large number of us are still waiting for.

[Rick]

more on M343+, P25-

at this link

http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/p25.htm

[davis1946]

response from e. krause

Rick, I just now got a response to my question regarding test results of M343+, P25- and the discrepancy of P25 listed as positive on my personal page. Here it is:

"Our system is set up to reject records with inconsistent results like P25- yet M269+. Your sample did test P25- and M269+ with the Deep Clade test, and for the sake of getting the partial results uploaded to your personal page we uploaded it as P25+ since the sample definitely belongs within the clade P25 defines. We’re investigating whether it is possible to have the system also recognize results with a P25- and M269+ as R1b1c, and if we are able to successfully implement that then your results list will be changed accordingly."

[Rick]

Rick, I just now got a response to my question regarding test results of M343+, P25- and the discrepancy of P25 listed as positive on my personal page. Here it is:

"Our system is set up to reject records with inconsistent results like P25- yet M269+. Your sample did test P25- and M269+ with the Deep Clade test, and for the sake of getting the partial results uploaded to your personal page we uploaded it as P25+ since the sample definitely belongs within the clade P25 defines. We’re investigating whether it is possible to have the system also recognize results with a P25- and M269+ as R1b1c, and if we are able to successfully implement that then your results list will be changed accordingly."

It looks like you're among the 5% or so of R1b 1c who have a reversion to the ancestral value at P25. The link I posted in my last has more information about this phenomenon.

[davis1946]

Rick, thanks for that geocities link. Sounds like they believe this sample should be tested for S21 and S28. FTDNA doesn't yet test for these, do they? Maybe sometime in the future. I've read where some of you are testing with a company in the UK. My cousin is the one with the Y Chromosome and feel I was lucky to get this one sample. Don't feel I can ask for another one right now. I hope there will be enough DNA remaining to upgrade to 67 markers after the SNP testing is completed.

BTW, I have been reading with interest another thread on this forum where you upload your results to a website that will put you in a geographical modal type. Is that true and how would you do that. My understanding of all this is very rudimentary. But, I do not know who my immigrant ancestor is or his country of origin. Davis is presumed to be Welsh but I have no confirmation of this. Am looking for any clues I can find on where my Davis line fits in the
world. Thanks.

[Rick]

Rick, thanks for that geocities link. Sounds like they believe this sample should be tested for S21 and S28. FTDNA doesn't yet test for these, do they? Maybe sometime in the future. I've read where some of you are testing with a company in the UK. My cousin is the one with the Y Chromosome and feel I was lucky to get this one sample. Don't feel I can ask for another one right now. I hope there will be enough DNA remaining to upgrade to 67 markers after the SNP testing is completed.

BTW, I have been reading with interest another thread on this forum where you upload your results to a website that will put you in a geographical modal type. Is that true and how would you do that. My understanding of all this is very rudimentary. But, I do not know who my immigrant ancestor is or his country of origin. Davis is presumed to be Welsh but I have no confirmation of this. Am looking for any clues I can find on where my Davis line fits in the
world. Thanks.

I've just ordered the S tests from Ethnoancestry, but then I don't have to go chasing spit from cousins. Good luck with that.

John McEwan is the one who does the cluster analysis for R1b. I'm not sure of the procedure he uses, but he has got a few thousand R1b haplotypes, which have been grouped into about 50 more-or-less distinct clusters. As I recall, you can send him your ysearch ID and SNP results and when he does his next update, he'll have you placed, if the results allow, into one of the clusters. But, I do recall his stating recently that he was going to start doing only 67-marker results, which should give more reliable clustering solutions, but would reduce the number of cases in his database.

Anyway, that link I provided was from his website. Here's the link to his main SNP page, where he provides his email address and directions for providing your data

http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/p25.htm

His main page has links to pdf files showing the various R1b haplotype clusters. Some of these are closely aligned to SNPs and/or geographic areas (e.g., NW Irish variety which is cluster 19 and SNP M222+). Some are less coherent. http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/

[davis1946]

John McEwan is the one who does the cluster analysis for R1b. I'm not sure of the procedure he uses, but he has got a few thousand R1b haplotypes, which have been grouped into about 50 more-or-less distinct clusters. As I recall, you can send him your ysearch ID and SNP results and when he does his next update, he'll have you placed, if the results allow, into one of the clusters. But, I do recall his stating recently that he was going to start doing only 67-marker results, which should give more reliable clustering solutions, but would reduce the number of cases in his database.

I sent in my cousin's SNP results to McEwan and just got this reply:
---------------------
"Thanks for the data, I have updated my file and will upload the data this weekend.

We are getting a nice little collection of P25- results.

It appears that you may belong to a cluster I have defined based on STR profiles as R1bSTR20. However, your matches are not that good with any group. I know little about this cluster but that it appears in England. Your haplotype also bears some resemblance to those that test positive to the S21 SNP."
--------------------
Now, I need to do research on STR20 and S21 SNP. Very excited to learn even more!

YSearch #4TWBD

[Stevo]

Looks like you'll have to talk your cousin into an S-series test.

[dutchlines]

R1b1c7?

Hi, all: I recently got my brother's Y-DNA 12-marker results from the Genographic Project, which assigned him the Haplogroup R1B. On uploading to FTDNA, this was changed to R1B1, with a green "Niall" badge on his personal page. His 12-marker results are an exact match to the first of the "Niall" signatures on the "matching Niall Noigiallach" page. Could someone check me on my interpretation of these results?

1) I understand that my brother's haplogroup is predicted, not confirmed. But I have read material on the Internet (and I think here) that the "Niall", or IMH, signature is now known to be R1B1C7. (Not sure what the difference is.) Can I assume that this is in fact the correct haplogroup, or do we need more testing? If so, which tests?

2) The FTDNA explanatory page for "Niall" says that "the signature is typical for R1b European males in general" but characterized by and 11,13 at DYS 385a and a 14 at DYS 392. Does this mean that only those two markers are sufficient for FTDNA to assign results to "Niall"? What does "the signature is typical..." translate to?

Thanks, Terry

[Stevo]

Terry,

Can you give us your brother's YSearch ID number?

Personally, I don't think there is any way to say at 12 markers that your brother will ultimately by R1b1c7. The only way to tell that is with a Deep SNP-R1b test and a positive result at M222.

M222 is the "UiNeill" NW Irish SNP.

Here is the R Haplogroup Tree, showing the SNPs that characterize the haplogroups and subclades.

R M207 (UTY2), M306 (S1), S4, S8, S9
• R* -
• R1 M173
• • R1* -
• • R1a SRY10831.2 (SRY1532)
• • • R1a* -
• • • R1a1 M17, M198
• • • • R1a1* -
• • • • R1a1a M56
• • • • R1a1b M157
• • • • R1a1c M64.2, M87, M204
• • R1b M343
• • • R1b* -
• • • R1b1 P25
• • • • R1b1* -
• • • • R1b1a M18
• • • • R1b1b M73
• • • • R1b1c M269, S3, S10, S13, S17
• • • • • R1b1c* -
• • • • • R1b1c1 M37
• • • • • R1b1c2 M65
• • • • • R1b1c3 M126
• • • • • R1b1c4 M153
• • • • • R1b1c5 M160
• • • • • R1b1c6 SRY2627 (M167)
• • • • • R1b1c7 M222 NW IRISH
• • • • • R1b1c8 P66
• • • • • R1b1c9 S21 (added)
• • • • • • R1b1c9* -
• • • • • • R1b1c9a L1 (S26) (added)
• • • • • • R1b1c9b S29 (added)
• • • • • R1b1c10 S28 (added)
• • • • R1b1d M335
• R2 M124

[Stevo]

Hi, all: I recently got my brother's Y-DNA 12-marker results from the Genographic Project, which assigned him the Haplogroup R1B. On uploading to FTDNA, this was changed to R1B1, with a green "Niall" badge on his personal page. His 12-marker results are an exact match to the first of the "Niall" signatures on the "matching Niall Noigiallach" page. Could someone check me on my interpretation of these results?

1) I understand that my brother's haplogroup is predicted, not confirmed. But I have read material on the Internet (and I think here) that the "Niall", or IMH, signature is now known to be R1B1C7. (Not sure what the difference is.) Can I assume that this is in fact the correct haplogroup, or do we need more testing? If so, which tests?

If his matches are mostly R1bs and he has the Niall thingee, you can be pretty sure he is R1b.

The only way to be absolutely certain, however, is with a Deep SNP-R1b test.

You should also upgrade to at least 37 markers, as well.

2) The FTDNA explanatory page for "Niall" says that "the signature is typical for R1b European males in general" but characterized by and 11,13 at DYS 385a and a 14 at DYS 392. Does this mean that only those two markers are sufficient for FTDNA to assign results to "Niall"? What does "the signature is typical..." translate to?

Thanks, Terry

What all that means is that the Niall haplotype is very close to the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH), the most prolific haplotype in Europe. It differs from it at 385a,b and 392 as noted.

"The signature is typical of R1b European males" refers to the ubiquity of WAMH.

There is the chance that your brother's Niall status is a coincidence due to convergence and that at more markers it will evaporate.

He is R1b but he might not be R1b1c7 (although there is certainly a good chance that he is).

As I said, you need an SNP test to know for sure.

[dutchlines]

R1b1c7?

Stevo,

My brother's Y-search ID is DHU7W. I'm the contact person--my mtDNA is T5, and I am RA6JX on Mitosearch. As we are full siblings, I assume his mtDNA would be the same as mine (not that you asked!)

Thanks for the info,
Terry

[Stevo]

Stevo,

My brother's Y-search ID is DHU7W. I'm the contact person--my mtDNA is T5, and I am RA6JX on Mitosearch. As we are full siblings, I assume his mtDNA would be the same as mine (not that you asked!)

Thanks for the info,
Terry

Oh, yeah: he's R1b1c, all right! He's got about a gazillion 12-marker matches, one of them with a guy who has been SNP tested as R1b1c7.

With that totally Irish-sounding surname I would not be at all surprised if his Niall thing holds out, as well.

Your brother should have a Deep SNP-R1b test to be sure and upgrade to 37 markers.

Then you can email his results to John McEwan at [email protected] .

John will add your brother to his SNP Results Table and to the long and distinguished list of R1b1c7s (if he tests M222+).

I myself am M222- and a genetic distance of 13 off WAMH.