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Half Norwegian but 0% Scandinavian, WHY?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JesperS View Post
    If the companies would share their algorithms for determining ancestry, we might be able to better understand results - but they are not going to, so we just guess.

    Let's say that 10 % of the markers in a reference population are "unique" to that population the rest is shared with neighboring regions.

    Let's say by chance you inherit equivalent of 1 % markers "unique" to Scandinavia from your mother and equivalent of 9 % markers "unique" to the British Isles from your father. The rest 90 % is the same for the two populations.
    Now the computer has to extrapolate (guess): You are 90 % British and 10 % Scandinavian.

    Of course they have a more sophisticated algorithm than that, but you get the idea.
    This is the most helpful answer so far. Eternal gratitude. Am upset at having seemingly "lost" half my heritage. Forgive following dumb questions. Am retired English teacher trying to educate myself. That said, are you saying that I could have inherited more markers/DNA from my Dad than from my Mom? I thought we inherited 50% of our DNA from each parent. Thanks for your response to this...breathlessly awaiting it asw this is a crucial point.

    PS Having to use ancient laptop at McDonalds because home internet connection is out for 2 days...May take time to answer your response. Also I can't do this on my Iphone because the screen is too small as is the keyboard and I can't see well as is. Blessings, LKF

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    • #17
      Originally posted by josh w. View Post
      It has been suggested that a main reason for Viking voyages was the search for wives. The wives would be brought back to Norway
      Amazing about your Ashkenazi heritage from Norway! How absolutely fascinating! Thanks for the book reference. Will try to find it. I read several recent scientific articles online about the Vikings raiding for women and slaves in the Brit. Isles. One responder has said that would be too far back to show up in my percentages, but I think it could explain how the BI DNA/marker got into my ancestry along the fjord in the first place.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Lani Friend View Post
        Amazing about your Ashkenazi heritage from Norway! How absolutely fascinating! Thanks for the book reference. Will try to find it. I read several recent scientific articles online about the Vikings raiding for women and slaves in the Brit. Isles. One responder has said that would be too far back to show up in my percentages, but I think it could explain how the BI DNA/marker got into my ancestry along the fjord in the first place.
        Honestly I would not read too much into it. My father is adopted but I know his birth mother is Norwegian or rather Scandinavian as her ancestry traces back to before borders between Norway/Sweden. His birth father (99% sure of who he is) also has a line to 🇳🇴 Norway. My MO does show as around 22% Scandinavian but like almost 50% British Isles as well. When I do admixtures on GEDMATCH (if you haven’t uploaded your dna there you should) it gives a much higher % of North Atlantic ancestry which I believe is what you and I would share. There is BI in there but also Scandinavia & probably some Icelandic & random islands if they were raiding. I would try the admixtures and see what it shows.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Lani Friend View Post
          Thanks for the input. Sorry, I don't understand your last sentence. Please explain oracles and pop combos, thank you. (Newbie to all this) Lani
          When you upload your "raw data" to GEDmatch you eventually gain access to Admixture calculators, which have various tools that can show results varying from chromosome painting, which shows a breakdown of what regions of each chromosome may belong to which ever group of people in your overall ancestral make-up.

          One of these other tools that can be used with the admixture calculator tools is the "Oracle" which compares your data to data collected from various ethnic groups around the world. From there it guesses what your ancestry might be, and it can either be a single population or it can include 4 different populations combined. For example with my own Eurogenes K15 (one of the tools on Gedmatch):

          Using 1 population approximation:
          1 Irish @ 3.870829
          2 West_Scottish @ 4.839707
          3 Southeast_English @ 4.857043
          4 Danish @ 5.758917
          5 North_German @ 5.963065
          ...
          It shows roughly 20 populations here, the larger the number to the right the more distant you are.

          From there it goes on to 2 populations (50% Irish + 50% Irish), 3 (50% Irish+25% Irish+25% North German) and finally 4 (Irish+Irish+Irish+North German). These estimates aren't close to my actual known ancestry, however it isn't far off either. A more accurate result would include more than just Irish and North German.

          Each calculator makes different guesses and some are entertaining and FAR from close, and this is true for the algorithms used by the various genetic genealogy companies.

          Originally posted by Lani Friend View Post
          This is the most helpful answer so far. Eternal gratitude. Am upset at having seemingly "lost" half my heritage. Forgive following dumb questions. Am retired English teacher trying to educate myself. That said, are you saying that I could have inherited more markers/DNA from my Dad than from my Mom? I thought we inherited 50% of our DNA from each parent. Thanks for your response to this...breathlessly awaiting it asw this is a crucial point.
          It is entirely possible to inherit more genetics from one parent over the other, but nothing crazy. Please don't take your MyOrigins results as fact. What you should be paying more attention to is your matches, are many of them relevant genealogical matches to your paternal and maternal families?

          Here are a few good reads on the subject:

          Genetic Genealogy using GEDmatch < this one is very useful for me at least

          Understanding Patterns of Inheritance: Where Did My DNA Come From? (And Why It Matters.)
          Last edited by spruithean; 18th February 2018, 04:03 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Lani Friend View Post
            Amazing about your Ashkenazi heritage from Norway! How absolutely fascinating! Thanks for the book reference. Will try to find it. I read several recent scientific articles online about the Vikings raiding for women and slaves in the Brit. Isles. One responder has said that would be too far back to show up in my percentages, but I think it could explain how the BI DNA/marker got into my ancestry along the fjord in the first place.
            I share all the cautions about interpreting results, but that does not rule out Viking and related ancestry. My daughter's family records go back to the 1600s. My two older kids are of English ancestry Some family trees suggest Norman ancestors and their MO2 indicates Norwegian ancestry----could be Viking or Norman.

            Yes my Ashkenazi matches were indeed a surprise, given their specific location. Actually there were two separate matches later combined by marriage. They were familiar with the homestead of my daughter's family in Fjaerland.
            I was recently informed of a match from Trondheim. I then discovered that Trondheim had a thriving Jewish community until the Nazis arrived. Trondheim is the only Norwegian city outside of Oslo to have a current synagogue although few Jews are left

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Lani Friend View Post
              That said, are you saying that I could have inherited more markers/DNA from my Dad than from my Mom? I thought we inherited 50% of our DNA from each parent.
              You inherit 50% from each parent. But due to meiosis when egg/sperm cells are made, they are a "mixture" that is not 50% each from there parents. So in the end, you will not get 25% each from your grand-parents. But you will have 50% each from your parents.

              Real example:
              Value in parentheses is centimorgans. You see the two grand-daughter have not inherited same amount from grand-parent.
              Code:
                            +----------+
                     +------+  Father  +-----+
                     |      +----+-----+     |
                     |           |           |
                     |        (3,384)        |
                     |           |           |
                     |      +----+-----+     |
                  (1,703)   | Daughter |  (1,967) 
                     |      +----+-----+     |
                     |           |           |
                     +--(3,384)--+--(3,384)--+
                     |                       |
               +-----------+         +------------+
               | Daughter/ |         | Daughter/  |
               | G-Daught  |         | G-Daught   |
               +-----------+         +------------+

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                I share all the cautions about interpreting results, but that does not rule out Viking and related ancestry. My daughter's family records go back to the 1600s. My two older kids are of English ancestry Some family trees suggest Norman ancestors and their MO2 indicates Norwegian ancestry----could be Viking or Norman.

                Yes my Ashkenazi matches were indeed a surprise, given their specific location. Actually there were two separate matches later combined by marriage. They were familiar with the homestead of my daughter's family in Fjaerland.
                I was recently informed of a match from Trondheim. I then discovered that Trondheim had a thriving Jewish community until the Nazis arrived. Trondheim is the only Norwegian city outside of Oslo to have a current synagogue although few Jews are left
                It is not easy to identify the age of a component. I have a major Italian component at Gedmatch (It is masked at MO 2). My Ashkenazi family has not been in Italy for over 1500 years.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
                  Honestly I would not read too much into it. My father is adopted but I know his birth mother is Norwegian or rather Scandinavian as her ancestry traces back to before borders between Norway/Sweden. His birth father (99% sure of who he is) also has a line to 🇳🇴 Norway. My MO does show as around 22% Scandinavian but like almost 50% British Isles as well. When I do admixtures on GEDMATCH (if you haven’t uploaded your dna there you should) it gives a much higher % of North Atlantic ancestry which I believe is what you and I would share. There is BI in there but also Scandinavia & probably some Icelandic & random islands if they were raiding. I would try the admixtures and see what it shows.
                  Very helpful, thanks! I will do so.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JMAisHere View Post
                    You inherit 50% from each parent. But due to meiosis when egg/sperm cells are made, they are a "mixture" that is not 50% each from there parents. So in the end, you will not get 25% each from your grand-parents. But you will have 50% each from your parents.

                    Real example:
                    Value in parentheses is centimorgans. You see the two grand-daughter have not inherited same amount from grand-parent.
                    Code:
                                  +----------+
                           +------+  Father  +-----+
                           |      +----+-----+     |
                           |           |           |
                           |        (3,384)        |
                           |           |           |
                           |      +----+-----+     |
                        (1,703)   | Daughter |  (1,967) 
                           |      +----+-----+     |
                           |           |           |
                           +--(3,384)--+--(3,384)--+
                           |                       |
                     +-----------+         +------------+
                     | Daughter/ |         | Daughter/  |
                     | G-Daught  |         | G-Daught   |
                     +-----------+         +------------+
                    Thanks for the diagram. So if this replicates back several generations, it means that a person could receive virtually no DNA from some of their lines (in my case the Norwegian ones), and only DNA from other lines (such as my father's)?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                      It is not easy to identify the age of a component. I have a major Italian component at Gedmatch (It is masked at MO 2). My Ashkenazi family has not been in Italy for over 1500 years.
                      The newly published "DNA map of Britain and Ireland" shown online clearly brings to light the Norman and Viking heritage of the Isles, though I don't know if they used atDNA tests or YDNA and mtDNA or all three. Does anyone out there know? The articles I read don't say.

                      So maybe your Italian component really does go back that far. But whenever I ask FTDNA staff about this, they say the atDNA results only cover the past 500 years or so, probably less. This part is very confusing to me. Either it does go back to Norman/Viking times or it doesn't, right? Can you/anyone explain this?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by spruithean View Post
                        When you upload your "raw data" to GEDmatch you eventually gain access to Admixture calculators, which have various tools that can show results varying from chromosome painting, which shows a breakdown of what regions of each chromosome may belong to which ever group of people in your overall ancestral make-up.

                        One of these other tools that can be used with the admixture calculator tools is the "Oracle" which compares your data to data collected from various ethnic groups around the world. From there it guesses what your ancestry might be, and it can either be a single population or it can include 4 different populations combined. For example with my own Eurogenes K15 (one of the tools on Gedmatch):



                        It shows roughly 20 populations here, the larger the number to the right the more distant you are.

                        From there it goes on to 2 populations (50% Irish + 50% Irish), 3 (50% Irish+25% Irish+25% North German) and finally 4 (Irish+Irish+Irish+North German). These estimates aren't close to my actual known ancestry, however it isn't far off either. A more accurate result would include more than just Irish and North German.

                        Each calculator makes different guesses and some are entertaining and FAR from close, and this is true for the algorithms used by the various genetic genealogy companies.



                        It is entirely possible to inherit more genetics from one parent over the other, but nothing crazy. Please don't take your MyOrigins results as fact. What you should be paying more attention to is your matches, are many of them relevant genealogical matches to your paternal and maternal families?

                        Here are a few good reads on the subject:

                        Genetic Genealogy using GEDmatch < this one is very useful for me at least

                        Understanding Patterns of Inheritance: Where Did My DNA Come From? (And Why It Matters.)
                        Holy Moly, thanks for the crash course! Your explanation is so clear, you must have teaching experience. This is soooo helpful! I will upload my data to Gedmatch and try to consult the Oracle!
                        Interesting that you say it is possible to inherit more genetics from one parent than the other. My mother had certain heritable health problems that I do not. Have always wondered why I didn't get them, and I wonder if that is why.
                        I appreciate your advice on what I should be paying attention to. Yes, this is what is so confusing to me -- I have lots of matches in Norway and virtually every ancestral surname is included, both on my grandmother's line (both sides of Sognefjord in Hoyanger area) and my grandfather's (both sides of same fjord in Vik and Balestrand areas). But Family Tree shows not 1% Scandinavian! (I can't believe that hundreds of people in those areas have British genetics.)

                        Very grateful for the good reads urls, can't wait to!

                        All of these responses are so great, and I cannot thank you all enough for taking the time and effort to help me figure things out. Best adjective for my crazy results so far is "entertaining" (smile)! Will take them far less seriously now.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lani Friend View Post
                          Holy Moly, thanks for the crash course! Your explanation is so clear, you must have teaching experience. This is soooo helpful! I will upload my data to Gedmatch and try to consult the Oracle!
                          Interesting that you say it is possible to inherit more genetics from one parent than the other. My mother had certain heritable health problems that I do not. Have always wondered why I didn't get them, and I wonder if that is why.
                          I appreciate your advice on what I should be paying attention to. Yes, this is what is so confusing to me -- I have lots of matches in Norway and virtually every ancestral surname is included, both on my grandmother's line (both sides of Sognefjord in Hoyanger area) and my grandfather's (both sides of same fjord in Vik and Balestrand areas). But Family Tree shows not 1% Scandinavian! (I can't believe that hundreds of people in those areas have British genetics.)

                          Very grateful for the good reads urls, can't wait to!

                          All of these responses are so great, and I cannot thank you all enough for taking the time and effort to help me figure things out. Best adjective for my crazy results so far is "entertaining" (smile)! Will take them far less seriously now.
                          I would wager that you are still "half Norwegian". While it is true that we inherit 50% of our DNA from our parents to quote JMAisHere

                          Originally posted by JMAisHere
                          You inherit 50% from each parent. But due to meiosis when egg/sperm cells are made, they are a "mixture" that is not 50% each from there parents. So in the end, you will not get 25% each from your grand-parents. But you will have 50% each from your parents.
                          The reason I advise to pay more attention to ones matches is that it can be more genealogically relevant, especially when confirming ones paper trail research. Your Norwegian matches would seem to be proof enough to me of your Norwegian ancestry.

                          I also do not believe that all the people in those areas have British ancestry either, at least to any recent degree. I forgot to mention that FTDNA has a population description feature on your myOrigins map. If you click on the bar in the upper left labeled "British Isles" and read the text below you will see it gives a rough outline of the history of the British Isles (though it inaccurately refers to the Anglo-Saxons as Celtic tribes!). They make mention of the Viking age, the Viking age saw a large number of Scandinavians settling/raiding/etc throughout Britain and Ireland. This map gives a rough image of Scandinavian expansion and activity. We can see why it isn't farfetched for ones Scandinavian DNA to be mislabeled as British as we are dealing with two populations that have a shared history (that extends far beyond the Dark Ages!).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by spruithean View Post
                            I would wager that you are still "half Norwegian". While it is true that we inherit 50% of our DNA from our parents to quote JMAisHere



                            The reason I advise to pay more attention to ones matches is that it can be more genealogically relevant, especially when confirming ones paper trail research. Your Norwegian matches would seem to be proof enough to me of your Norwegian ancestry.

                            I also do not believe that all the people in those areas have British ancestry either, at least to any recent degree. I forgot to mention that FTDNA has a population description feature on your myOrigins map. If you click on the bar in the upper left labeled "British Isles" and read the text below you will see it gives a rough outline of the history of the British Isles (though it inaccurately refers to the Anglo-Saxons as Celtic tribes!). They make mention of the Viking age, the Viking age saw a large number of Scandinavians settling/raiding/etc throughout Britain and Ireland. This map gives a rough image of Scandinavian expansion and activity. We can see why it isn't farfetched for ones Scandinavian DNA to be mislabeled as British as we are dealing with two populations that have a shared history (that extends far beyond the Dark Ages!).
                            The Scandinavian Settlement map is quite enlightening regarding Norse traffic going out of Norway. However, I never read or see anything about traffic going from the British Isles to Norway. I appreciate the long shared trading history among these areas and the mixing up of things as a result, but IMHO I think Family Tree Company needs to "recalibrate its calculators" or give its machine a good wallop on the side to make the potato chips come down instead of the dreaded fig newtons

                            Being metaphorical here, but I live on a fixed income and had to wait a long time for the stupid test to go on sale, then I had to convince my husband it was well worth it, and I waited with bated breath for the results, and I see now the money would have been much better spent reaming the garbage disposal...

                            Do you think these tests will improve in the near future?
                            Do you recommend a different one?
                            Many thanks.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hello Lani, my mother is as scandinavian as you can be.her mother and father can trace there ancestry back to denmark and norway for more than 400 years.and my dna have me with"only 23% scandinavian dna"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Lani Friend View Post
                                The newly published "DNA map of Britain and Ireland" shown online clearly brings to light the Norman and Viking heritage of the Isles, though I don't know if they used atDNA tests or YDNA and mtDNA or all three. Does anyone out there know? The articles I read don't say.

                                So maybe your Italian component really does go back that far. But whenever I ask FTDNA staff about this, they say the atDNA results only cover the past 500 years or so, probably less. This part is very confusing to me. Either it does go back to Norman/Viking times or it doesn't, right? Can you/anyone explain this?
                                Maybe they meant that matches go back 500 years. Otherwise, it does not make sense. They classify me as Ashkenazi but that could not be done on East European lines alone. I know that they know that I have a Levantine component (2000 years ago) Display of my Levantine and Italian components is preempted by my designation as Ashkenazi. In other words, if I were not Ashkenazi I could see my Italian and West Middle East components. This is why I need to go to Gedmatch.
                                Last edited by josh w.; 20th February 2018, 08:31 AM.

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