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MyOrigins Intriguing Result 1/3 Iberian incl. Sephardic Jewish, BUT....

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  • #16
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    There was a maritime Neolithic route from the Levant to Spain via Sicily. The Levantine component could have gotten there at any time.
    Actually, the Ydna at Carthage (not all of Tunisia) resembles that of European Phoenician locations--research by Zallua.
    Rakkaus, You have an excellent grasp of the history of the region. However, I would prefer history supported by dna results than either source alone. There was probably more than one admixture event where Levantine lines were admixed in Sicily. There is no easy way of determining which event had the greatest impact. There are at least two methodological problems with such an analysis. First of all, there is probably great overlap between Jewish and Phoenician-Lebanese lines . They both had Canaanite ancestors- was there much difference between Haifa and Phoenicia. Even today, after 2000 years of separation and varied histories, it is not easy to separate modern Lebanese from Ashkenazis. That relates to the second point. I am not aware of a West Med Sephardic adna sample. The closest is My Heritage with general Iberian and North African samples---the North African sample is identified as Sephardic North African for Jews but plain North African for everyone else. Most samples are from the East Med.
    Last edited by josh w.; 24th February 2018, 10:59 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by josh w. View Post
      Rakkaus, You have an excellent grasp of the history of the region. However, I would prefer history supported by dna results than either source alone. There was probably more than one admixture event where Levantine lines were admixed in Sicily. There is no easy way of determining which event had the greatest impact. There are at least two methodological problems with such an analysis. First of all, there is probably great overlap between Jewish and Phoenician-Lebanese lines . They both had Canaanite ancestors- was there much difference between Haifa and Phoenicia. Even today, after 2000 years of separation and varied histories, it is not easy to separate modern Lebanese from Ashkenazis. That relates to the second point. I am not aware of a West Med Sephardic adna sample. The closest is My Heritage with general Iberian and North African samples---the North African sample is identified as Sephardic North African for Jews but plain North African for everyone else. Most samples are from the East Med.
      My Heritage has a North African Sephardic sample. I am not aware of a European West Med Sephardic adna sample. There is no sample currently from Iberia or Sicily. Such a sample would have to be composed of conversos. There is a Roman Jewish sample but they reject the possibility that they have Sephardic origins. A key problem for any sample, Jewish or converso, would be admixture from host countries. Behar used an Iberian converso sample for a Mtdna study.
      Last edited by josh w.; 25th February 2018, 07:38 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by josh w. View Post
        Rakkaus, You have an excellent grasp of the history of the region. However, I would prefer history supported by dna results than either source alone. There was probably more than one admixture event where Levantine lines were admixed in Sicily. There is no easy way of determining which event had the greatest impact. There are at least two methodological problems with such an analysis. First of all, there is probably great overlap between Jewish and Phoenician-Lebanese lines . They both had Canaanite ancestors- was there much difference between Haifa and Phoenicia. Even today, after 2000 years of separation and varied histories, it is not easy to separate modern Lebanese from Ashkenazis. That relates to the second point. I am not aware of a West Med Sephardic adna sample. The closest is My Heritage with general Iberian and North African samples---the North African sample is identified as Sephardic North African for Jews but plain North African for everyone else. Most samples are from the East Med.
        I'm skeptical of ancient Phoenician-Carthaginian line going back over 2,000 years to western Sicily before even the First Punic War.

        While true ancient Phoenicians founded Ziz which later became Panormos, even at peak Carthage never had total dominance of the island of Sicily, only two major settlements on the western coast to serve trade routes. Much more of the island was settled by Greeks.

        And were the 'native' prehistoric tribes of Sicily: the Siculi, the Sicani, the Elymi.

        The Siculi were an Italic tribe.
        The Sicani were believed to have migrated from Iberia.
        The Elymi in Roman legend were descended from Trojans, like Romans themselves, and treated as such by Rome, though unclear how much truth there is to Trojan origins legend in either case.


        Phoenicians founded the colony that became Carthage sometime in 8th or 7th century BC; Phoenicia was history by 6th century BC.

        Historicity of Carthaginians' Phoenician origin may be exaggerated by mythology. In Virgil's Aeneid, Trojan Aeneas founds Rome; Phoenician Dido (from Tyre, present Lebanon) founds Carthage- vowing bitter enmity between Rome & Carthage until one destroys the other.


        EVEN IF Carthaginians were pure Levantine Phoenicians not mixed with other tribes, they never had a total dominant presence in Sicily relative to Greeks, Romans, the native tribes, until Rome annexed all of Sicily in 3rd century BC.

        Greek Syracusans destroyed Motya in 397 BC. Carthage founded Lilybaeum in its place, one of the last holdouts in Sicily surrendered by Carthage in the 241 BC peace treaty ending the First Punic War.




        As for the DNA...

        DNALand actually counts Mediterranean Islander under the broader category of "Ashkenazi/Levantine"...

        And as my results posted just above show, DNA.Land estimated I have 0-1% based on 3 DNA samples.

        Whatever genetic connections I have to the Levant I don't think are typical of Sicilians descended from ancient Phoenicians or other Canaanites. I'd think such descent would be identiied as "Sicilian" DNA by now, especially given the way "Mediterranean Islander" is classified under "Levantine".

        NOT MINE, SAMPLE IMAGE I FOUND SHOWING DNA.LAND CLASSIFIES MEDITERRANEAN ISLANDER UNDER ASHKENAZI/LEVANTINE:






        On the other hand, here is the map of my DNA.Land analysis of my FTDNA sample:




        Pretty amazing I have two grandparents from the island of Sicily... yet Sicily- both west and east samples- along with Sardinia are the only places in Western Europe where I didn't match at all.

        Kinda re-enforces my sense that "Sicilian" is not much more satisfactory or satisfying an answer as to my ethnic roots than "Italian"...


        I match with Northern Italians in Tuscany & Bergamo.
        I match with Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians.
        I match with French, Iberians, Basques in France & Spain.
        I match with Brits including Scots & Orcadians.
        I match with Icelanders, Norwegians, Finns.
        I have small matches with Turks (but NOT Cypriots), Caucasians, Algerians, Tunisians, Egyptians...
        I even have small matches with modern Levantine peoples including Syrians, Jordanians and the Druze in Israel.

        But nothing at all to match either side of poor Sicily in the middle nor Sardinia nor Malta nor Cyprus.

        4 of my (paternal) great-grandparents were from Sicily.

        A 5th (maternal) great-grandparent born in São Paulo, Brazil but I believe traces ancestry back to Naples/Southern Italy.

        But wouldn't think I was 5/8 Southern Italian/Sicilian origin looking at my DNA.

        DNA isn't transmitted evenly, may have gotten more from one grandparent than another, why I have different results from sister...

        ...although would be odd to get only 0-1% Mediterranean Islander if my entire paternal side were of Mediterranean Islander genetic origin being from Sicily.


        My maternal grandfather was from Finland & clearly Finnish genes were very strong, there's no uncertainty there, most tests show over 1/4 my DNA of Finnish origin or Fennoscandian (presumably Swedish mixed during 700 years or so Finland was part of Sweden.)

        My phenotype reflects that somewhat.

        Finnish blonde genes made me naturally towheaded platinum-blonde child, now gold-tinted 'dirty blonde', fair & straight-haired while my Sicilian father has dark curly hair (or had, hope inheriting hair from my Finnish grandfather means I'll keep my hair like he did).

        My sister inherited looks from my father- though her hair is straight. She was NOT a fellow towhead as a child, always a shade of brown.

        When I see my child pics, unless look close to see brown eyes (which I also got from maternal side) I look more like a Finn or Swede than a Sicilian.


        On eye color, light eyes are rare in Sicily, but my Sicilian grandmother had icy blue eyes & pale skin.

        My grandfather from same town in Sicily had brown eyes & tanned complexion... but his sister looks just like him except with blue eyes & pale skin (no sunbathing for old Sicilian women...but my grandfather was always out in the sun working his garden.)




        Considering only ~10-25% of Sicilians have blue eyes, blue eyes running in both of my Sicilian grandparents' families stands out, adds more evidence suggesting relatively recent ancestors admixture from somewhere else, although neither Balkans nor Iberia seems a likely source of light eyes...

        Normans perhaps?
        Last edited by Rakkaus; 27th February 2018, 06:43 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Rakkaus View Post
          I'm skeptical of ancient Phoenician-Carthaginian line going back over 2,000 years to western Sicily before even the First Punic War.

          While true ancient Phoenicians founded Ziz which later became Panormos, even at peak Carthage never had total dominance of the island of Sicily, only two major settlements on the western coast to serve trade routes. Much more of the island was settled by Greeks.

          And were the 'native' prehistoric tribes of Sicily: the Siculi, the Sicani, the Elymi.

          The Siculi were an Italic tribe.
          The Sicani were believed to have migrated from Iberia.
          The Elymi in Roman legend were descended from Trojans, like Romans themselves, and treated as such by Rome, though unclear how much truth there is to Trojan origins legend in either case.


          Phoenicians founded the colony that became Carthage sometime in 8th or 7th century BC; Phoenicia was history by 6th century BC.

          Historicity of Carthaginians' Phoenician origin may be exaggerated by mythology. In Virgil's Aeneid, Trojan Aeneas founds Rome; Phoenician Dido (from Tyre, present Lebanon) founds Carthage- vowing bitter enmity between Rome & Carthage until one destroys the other.


          EVEN IF Carthaginians were pure Levantine Phoenicians not mixed with other tribes, they never had a total dominant presence in Sicily relative to Greeks, Romans, the native tribes, until Rome annexed all of Sicily in 3rd century BC.

          Greek Syracusans destroyed Motya in 397 BC. Carthage founded Lilybaeum in its place, one of the last holdouts in Sicily surrendered by Carthage in the 241 BC peace treaty ending the First Punic War.




          As for the DNA...

          DNALand actually counts Mediterranean Islander under the broader category of "Ashkenazi/Levantine"...

          And as my results posted just above show, DNA.Land estimated I have 0-1% based on 3 DNA samples.

          Whatever genetic connections I have to the Levant I don't think are typical of Sicilians descended from ancient Phoenicians or other Canaanites. I'd think such descent would be identiied as "Sicilian" DNA by now, especially given the way "Mediterranean Islander" is classified under "Levantine".

          NOT MINE, SAMPLE IMAGE I FOUND SHOWING DNA.LAND CLASSIFIES MEDITERRANEAN ISLANDER UNDER ASHKENAZI/LEVANTINE:






          On the other hand, here is the map of my DNA.Land analysis of my FTDNA sample:




          Pretty amazing I have two grandparents from the island of Sicily... yet Sicily- both west and east samples- along with Sardinia are the only places in Western Europe where I didn't match at all.

          Kinda re-enforces my sense that "Sicilian" is not much more satisfactory or satisfying an answer as to my ethnic roots than "Italian"...


          I match with Northern Italians in Tuscany & Bergamo.
          I match with Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians.
          I match with French, Iberians, Basques in France & Spain.
          I match with Brits including Scots & Orcadians.
          I match with Icelanders, Norwegians, Finns.
          I have small matches with Turks (but NOT Cypriots), Caucasians, Algerians, Tunisians, Egyptians...
          I even have small matches with modern Levantine peoples including Syrians, Jordanians and the Druze in Israel.

          But nothing at all to match either side of poor Sicily in the middle nor Sardinia nor Malta nor Cyprus.

          4 of my (paternal) great-grandparents were from Sicily.

          A 5th (maternal) great-grandparent born in São Paulo, Brazil but I believe traces ancestry back to Naples/Southern Italy.

          But wouldn't think I was 5/8 Southern Italian/Sicilian origin looking at my DNA.

          DNA isn't transmitted evenly, may have gotten more from one grandparent than another, why I have different results from sister...

          ...although would be odd to get only 0-1% Mediterranean Islander if my entire paternal side were of Mediterranean Islander genetic origin being from Sicily.


          My maternal grandfather was from Finland & clearly Finnish genes were very strong, there's no uncertainty there, most tests show over 1/4 my DNA of Finnish origin or Fennoscandian (presumably Swedish mixed during 700 years or so Finland was part of Sweden.)

          My phenotype reflects that somewhat.

          Finnish blonde genes made me naturally towheaded platinum-blonde child, now gold-tinted 'dirty blonde', fair & straight-haired while my Sicilian father has dark curly hair (or had, hope inheriting hair from my Finnish grandfather means I'll keep my hair like he did).

          My sister inherited looks from my father- though her hair is straight. She was NOT a fellow towhead as a child, always a shade of brown.

          When I see my child pics, unless look close to see brown eyes (which I also got from maternal side) I look more like a Finn or Swede than a Sicilian.


          On eye color, light eyes are rare in Sicily, but my Sicilian grandmother had icy blue eyes & pale skin.

          My grandfather from same town in Sicily had brown eyes & tanned complexion... but his sister looks just like him except with blue eyes & pale skin (no sunbathing for old Sicilian women...but my grandfather was always out in the sun working his garden.)




          Considering only ~10-25% of Sicilians have blue eyes, blue eyes running in both of my Sicilian grandparents' families stands out, adds more evidence suggesting relatively recent ancestors admixture from somewhere else, although neither Balkans nor Iberia seems a likely source of light eyes...

          Normans perhaps?

          I never said that Phoenicians were dominant merely that they were present. Do you have phylogenetic dna evidence to support your conclusion. Have you read Zalloua's y dna research on the 'Phoenician Signature' in Europe and North Africa.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by josh w. View Post
            My Heritage has a North African Sephardic sample. I am not aware of a European West Med Sephardic adna sample. There is no sample currently from Iberia or Sicily. Such a sample would have to be composed of conversos. There is a Roman Jewish sample but they reject the possibility that they have Sephardic origins. A key problem for any sample, Jewish or converso, would be admixture from host countries. Behar used an Iberian converso sample for a Mtdna study.
            MyHeritage I have not taken a direct sample test with, but I submitted the raw data from FTDNA, 23andMe, AncestryDNA.

            With slight variances, all of them paint a quite different picture of me than what the original sources like myOrigins said.

            MyHeritage I find dubious to trust because apparently all of France, Italy (incl. Sicily), Spain, North Africa are considered "Iberian", of which I have only 1-2% or so.

            Or 0% Italian, I mean "Iberian", in MyHeritage's analysis of my FTDNA sample.


            Meanwhile it says I'm 40-48% Greek, a small range on the map which covers the modern nation of Greece expanding slightly north of Peloponnese into Balkans and wrapping out into the Aegean Sea to cover Greek isles Crete and east to Cyprus.

            I expect to have some Greek, but I don't expect virtually all of presumably "Sicilian" DNA from Magna Græcia to be grouped into such a tiny "Greek" range that just happens to coincide with where modern Orthodox Greek nation got its 19th/20th century independence from the Muslim Ottomans, whereas the Ancient Hellenic world extended from Egypt, the Levant, Asia Minor (Trojan War!) to Peloponnese to Sicily & Italy to Iberia.

            How could all of Italy, France, Spain, Tunis, Algeria, Morocco, be grouped together as "Iberian", but "Greek" covers such a narrow range?

            MyHeritage says 16.5% English from the same FTDNA sample raw data the myOrigins gives 0% British.


            ~1-2% Middle Eastern okay.

            Balkans 11-20% or so which seems to cover all of Southeast Europe north of Greece from Croatia to Romania to Bulgaria.

            And why not, MyHeritage says I have ~2% Somali from East Africa, I'm black per the one drop rule.



            I would not expect there to be many- or any- "pure" Sephardic Jews from Sicily/Southern Italy, rather estimates are that about 1/4 of the population has some Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

            The Spanish Inquisition expelled the Jews from Sicily 1493, from Naples 1541, and from Milan in the North in 1597 (although situation was different in Northern Italy).

            Wealthier Jews could afford to leave seeking refuge in the Ottoman Empire.

            Poorer- and likely less educated- Jews had to convert to Catholicism, at least publicly & officially, although many continued some habits & traditions of crypto-Judaism in secret.

            In Italy/Sicily, the conversos were called neofiti (neophytes). Over time they were mixed in with the general population in Italy/Sicily. New generations were not necessarily interested in living full crypto-Jewish lives like their ancestors but passed along some Sephardic Jewish origin customs & practices, traditions & superstitions, whose Judaic origins were forgotten over time & instead believed to just be family customs, Catholic customs, Sicilian/Italian customs, local customs.


            Perhaps worth noting that 1492 Spanish King Ferdinand issues the Alhambra Decree expelling the Jews & establishing Spanish Inquisition at the same time Columbus discovers the New World...

            This would begin several centuries of severe decline for Sicily/Naples under Spanish rule.

            Sicily had been a coveted prize in the middle of the ancient and medieval worlds with an advanced & learned population going back at least to Archimedes in 3rd century BC Sicily. Religious tolerance had also been a hallmark of Sicilian society allowing it to progress in learning whether under Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Saracen, Norman rule.

            Sicily had been not only the breadbasket that fed Ancient Rome but a commercial mecca for Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Saracens, Normans, Aragonese, Spanish merchant trading & commerce in the centre of the Old World, with Jews making up a significant portion of the merchant class to enrich Sicily.

            The discovery of the New World rendered Sicily a forgotten backwater as far as its Spanish masters were concerned, with many more lucrative trade routes & opportunity to plunder resources in the New World; combined with the Spanish forcing expulsions of Jews & letting Inquisition run wild, Spain allowed Two Sicilies to regress to a largely illiterate agrarian peasant society by the 19th century, corruption & neglect giving rise to the infamous mafias of Naples and Sicily.

            By 1860 Italian unification with Garibaldi's conquest of Spanish Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, it's estimated that literacy in the kingdom had dropped as low as 10%.

            It would have been impossible for descendants of forced convert crypto-Jews to maintain traditional Jewish learning & scholarship through the generations when nearly everyone in Two Sicilies was totally illiterate peasantry under the tyrannical Spanish Bourbon kings.

            That provides a perfect opportunity for descendants of the Sephardic Jewish neofiti to end up largely integrating & intermingling with their fellow Sicilian peasantry & lose touch with any sort of Jewish intellectual roots but continue Jewish customs, beliefs, superstitions out of habit while potentially forgetting their Jewish origins.

            Especially as Sicilians did not share the extreme anti-Semitism of the Spanish Monarchy which forced the anti-Jewish and anti-intellectual Spanish Inquisition upon Two Sicilies against the will of the local populations- and neofiti knew all the forced conversions/expulsions were Spain's idea/policy, there was a greater solidarity among Sicilians regardless of ethnoreligious ancestral background, all reduced to agrarian impoverishes peasants, and more of a willingness to mix compared to other places in Europe where Jews were either kept strictly kept away in ghettos or expelled without even the option to convert religions.


            While it may hard to genetically isolate a Sicilian/Italian Sephardic Jew, nearly all would be expected to have host country admixture, nevertheless these neofiti did exist in not insignificant numbers in Southern Italy & Sicily since 1500s, their descendants of varying degrees of Sephardic ancestry must exist among Italians/Sicilians in Italy or amid the Italian immigrant diaspora.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
              I never said that Phoenicians were dominant merely that they were present. Do you have phylogenetic dna evidence to support your conclusion. Have you read Zalloua's y dna research on the 'Phoenician Signature' in Europe and North Africa.
              Looked it up, seemed mildly interesting at first, but mostly too flawed a study to take seriously, Zalloua seemingly motivated to prove his preconceived hypothesis out of political motivations of Lebanese nationalism.

              Really not helpful to figuring out my own genetic situation.


              Sicily was actually what first tipped me off to the flawed methodology & conclusions of this study.

              Anyone familiar with history- or anyone who zooms up to look at the map I posted- knows ancient Sicily was divided pretty unambiguously with Phoenicians/Carthaginians settling on the West coast while Greeks settled the East of Sicily.

              Ancient Sicily had 14 Hellenic colonies, including both those settled by the Greeks spreading from the East coast, and native Sicilian tribes who adopted Hellenic- not Phoenician- culture, language, civilization.

              Phoenicia/Carthage had only 2 colonies in Sicily both on the far west coast, only one of which was a significant settlement, both lost to Rome by 3rd century BC.

              According to the study's own map (B), this east/west split is acknowledged, and yet greater alleged "Phoenician" J2 frequency is to be found in EASTERN Sicily but NOT in Western Sicily where ancient Phoenicians actually settled ~2500 years ago?

              To the west at Mallorca & smaller Spanish Balearic isles is the same story. Phoenician contact had low J2 frequency while non-Phoenician contact had high J2 frequency.




              And Phoenicians did NOT have significant contact with Greek island of Crete where is highest frequency J2.






              On the other hand, Ancient Greeks did have significant influence throughout the Near East and Asia Minor, yet Greek settlements in Anatolia and Hellenic influence in the Levant itself are ignored while the study's author pretends Crete had a significant Phoenician presence.

              Very conveniently cherrypicked cases of what constitutes a "Major Greek colony" versus "Phoenician trading posts".



              Alexander the Great conquered Phoenicia itself for Hellenic civilization in the process of conquering the Persian Achaemenid Empire.

              Comment


              • #22
                None of this demonstrates that Sephardim were the major source of Sicilian Levantine lines. I do not question the Greek presence, but how do you explain Dna Land's Med Island Levantine component which does not include Greece

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                  None of this demonstrates that Sephardim were the major source of Sicilian Levantine lines. I do not question the Greek presence, but how do you explain Dna Land's Med Island Levantine component which does not include Greece
                  Med Island includes Cyprus, Malta and Sicily. There were some Sephardis in all the locations But Cyprus and to some extent Malta could well have non Jewish Levantine sources. Med Island does not include Ashkenazis It is not clear if Med Island includes Sephardis. However, if that is the case it means that Sephardis cannot be distinguished from non Jewish Levantines.
                  Last edited by josh w.; 28th February 2018, 09:12 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                    None of this demonstrates that Sephardim were the major source of Sicilian Levantine lines. I do not question the Greek presence, but how do you explain Dna Land's Med Island Levantine component which does not include Greece
                    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                    Med Island includes Cyprus, Malta and Sicily. There were some Sephardis in all the locations But Cyprus and to some extent Malta could well have non Jewish Levantine sources. Med Island does not include Ashkenazis It is not clear if Med Island includes Sephardis. However, if that is the case it means that Sephardis cannot be distinguished from non Jewish Levantines.

                    I'm not particularly worried about explaining DNA.Land's Med Island Levantine component- it is irrelevant except for the fact that I DON'T have it.

                    The most significant takeaway from DNA.Land's Levantine "Mediterranean Islander" category is that I did NOT match it at all despite having two grandparents from the Mediterranean Island of Sicily.

                    Whatever 'typical' Levantine line may be found in Cyprus, Malta, Sardinia, and West Sicily/East Sicily according to DNA.Land, whether derived from ancient Phoenicians or ancient Jews or whatever.... I did not match it so I need to find alternate explanations for my own origins.



                    Anyway while 4-6% Levantine trace on MyOrigins is of interest to explore, a reminder the bigger piece of the puzzle I'm still trying to explain is the 1/3 Iberian DNA (19-21% Iberian, 10-13% Sephardic Iberian) according to MyOrigins both through FTDNA Family Finder's own cheek swab sample & autosomal transfer of my 23&Me raw data to FTDNA.

                    Mixed Spanish Sephardic Jewish conversos carrying ancient Israelite, Sephardic, Iberian DNA appear an attractive explanation since that would be the simplest answer tying together & explaining all 3 at once the 21% Iberian, 13% Sephardic Iberia, 6% Levant/East Med that together make up ~40% of my DNA according to myOrigins.

                    It is admittedly just a theory put forth attempting to apply Occam's Razor to the combination of what I know from DNA test results to what I know of family & general history.

                    It's possible the 19-21% Iberian, the 10-13% Sephardic Iberia, and the 4-6% Levant/East Med coast, are unrelated to each other, but then I have to try to come up with individual explanations for each one excluding the others.


                    Also generally trying to make sense of quite contradictory results according to different analyses.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Because I don't have enough conflicting opinions, I sought results from Gencove...

                      Again some variance between samples, Gencove's overall unique standout is assigning over 1/4 of my DNA to Northern Italy covering quite a small particular range of northern Italian peninsula north of Rome up through continental Italy and border regions.


                      Varying amounts of "Northern British Isles"...I traced some ancestry to England but not to Scotland, though looks like the range just about extends into northern England.

                      Could just be Gencove groups much of England, Wales, Ireland with Northern France & Germany as one big "Northern & Central Europe" category...despite having documented German ancestors carrying German surname down to my grandmother, seems I am allergic to ever showing even a trace of German DNA.

                      Varying traces of Middle East, North Africa, Northeast Europe.

                      Only my FTDNA sample turned up a trace of "Anatolia, Caucasus, Iranian Plateau" range.

                      Relatively low % counts of Finnish DNA just under 20%, although increased Scandinavian altogether still makes for over 1/4 Fennoscandian, without taking into account Northern British or Northeast Europe as Nordic...


                      The only "Jewish" Gencove tests is Ashkenazi, and once again I don't match with Ashkenazi Jews- who are thought to be genetically similar to Levantine Mediterranean Islanders.

                      Gencove does not have Sephardic category nor Iberian. Nothing more specific than Southwest Europe, Northern Africa, Eastern Mediterranean, Middle East, Anatolia/Caucasus/Iranian Plateau, all of which except maybe the last I have in at least some trace amount.

                      More data points, but still no conclusions there.

                      North Italy, East Med, Southwest Europe, Middle East with tiny traces of North Africa & maybe Anatolia are compatible with possible Iberian/Sephardic Iberian/Levant showed by FTDNA MyOrigins but still doesn't settle things either way.



                      Plurality over 1/4 Northern Italian is interesting, further confirms DNA.Land matching me with Northern Italians in Tuscany & Bergamo- but not with Sicily (East or West) nor Sardinia.

                      Contradicts dubious MyHeritage which assigns virtually all my Italian DNA to "Greek" (and "Balkans"). FTDNA & AncestryDNA not helpful since they group ALL of Italy, Greece, Balkans together as South/SE Europe.


                      Over 1/4 Northern Italian is pretty odd considering I don't have any documented Northern Italian ancestry.

                      Rather my Italian origin great-grandparents 1/8 Neapolitan origin and 4/8 Sicilian.

                      Italy has one of the largest regional gaps between North and South, at least in cultural stereotype.

                      Some racist Lega Nord Northern Italians with inferiority complexes believe themselves Germanic Aryan Europeans superior to dark African "terroni" of Southern Italy & Sicily.

                      (Northern Italy having produced such fine Nordic Aryan specimen as Benito Mussolini & Silvio Berlusconi...)

                      The concept even made it to the United States where Northern Italians & Southern Italians/Sicilians were sometimes classified as different races (North=white; South=dago!).


                      True Italian peninsula and Sicily only politically unified (for the first time since the Goths & Lombards replaced Roman rule) in 1861, with Sicily & Naples having spent much of the prior 400 years as neglected Spanish Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, very different historical development than small Northern Italian city-states like Venice, Piedmont, Milan, Genoa, Tuscany...

                      Is it possible Iberian DNA could be interpreted as Northern Italian by Gencove? With Aragon then Spanish ruling kingdoms of Sicily and Naples for 4 centuries prior to Italian unification, there wasn't much population migration from independent wealthy Northern Italy states to Spanish Two Sicilies...

                      Even after Italian unification, migration tended to go in one direction, with poor Southern Italian peasants moving to take working class urban jobs in Northern Italian cities much to the chagrin of Lega Nord racists...(or just off to America instead as my grandparents went!)




                      Is there any kernel of truth to silly stereotype of Northern Italians being different race from Southern Italians/Sicilians? (Not white vs. black, but North more Germanic roots while South more Greek roots...)

                      Or is it normal for an average Sicilian or Neapolitan, an average Tuscan or Milanese, to actually all be far closer to each other, with "Italian" DNA hard to tell apart between North/South Italian regions?

                      Am I a genetic oddity 5/8 recent ancestral origins in Naples/Sicily, 3/8 from far away Nordic Europe, but overall more genetic resemblance to Northern Italians than Southern Italians/Sicilians- again according to DNA.Land not matching AT ALL with typical Sicilian or Sardinian reference populations?


                      23andMe raw data:



                      FTDNA raw data:




                      AncestryDNA raw data:


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        OK do you show Sephardic or Jewish on any other test. If not, I am not sure about MO 2. There have been many complaints about MO2, especially the Sephardic component-- there seems to be a false positive problem
                        Last edited by josh w.; 28th February 2018, 06:57 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                          OK do you show Sephardic or Jewish on any other test. If not, I am not sure about MO 2. There have been many complaints about MO2, especially the Sephardic component-- there seems to be a false positive problem
                          I am not aware of people with high MO Sephardic percentages, but they may exist. At low levels it may be hard to separate true positives from false positives.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                            I am not aware of people with high MO Sephardic percentages, but they may exist. At low levels it may be hard to separate true positives from false positives.
                            MO2 does not have a Gedmatch like spreadsheet. I have no idea of how Sephardic samples score on the Sephardic component. MO was looking for a Jewish sample rather than a converso sample. Those who remained Jewish have not been in Spain for over 400 years. Ftdna informed me that they were having difficulty with high rates of admixture.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                              OK do you show Sephardic or Jewish on any other test. If not, I am not sure about MO 2. There have been many complaints about MO2, especially the Sephardic component-- there seems to be a false positive problem
                              MyOrigins is the only test that has Sephardic Iberian as a category.

                              23&Me only gave me 0.1% Ashkenazi.

                              AncestryDNA gave me 3% European Jewish which I believe is Ashkenazi.


                              MyHeritage I have not taken their own test, I did submit my raw DNA data from other tests, I did not get any of their Jewish categories.

                              MyHeritage tests for a number of "Jewish" categories, though it doesn't test for true Sephardic Iberian either.

                              MyHeritage has Jewish categories for:
                              "Ashkenazi Jewish"
                              "Yemenite Jewish"
                              "Ethiopian Jewish"
                              "Mizrahi Jewish-Iranian/Iraqi"
                              "Sephardic Jewish-North African"

                              These categories are not as comprehensive as first appear, especially for Sephardic ancestry, and moreover the labels are misleading if not inaccurate.

                              FamilyTreeDNA actually got it right in tracing ETHNIC/GENETIC Sephardic ancestry specifically to Iberia in MyOrigins 2.0.

                              "Sephardic" has different meanings.

                              Jews of Middle Eastern/North African origin often identify as "Sephardic" in terms of religious rite/custom/traditions; Ashkenazim often group all non-Ashkenazi Jews as "Sephardic"...

                              ...but Middle Eastern/North African Jews are better described as Mizrahi/Magrehbi in terms of ethnic/genetic origin as they may have no connection to Sepharad i.e. Iberia.

                              "Sephardic" comes from Hebrew name for Spain "Sepharad"... just as "Ashkenazi" comes from Hebrew name "Ashkenaz" for Germany.

                              Technically, true Sephardic Jews must have descent from Iberian Jews who lived in Spain and Portugal until either expelled or forced to convert by Inquisitions in 1490s.

                              Sefardí means "Spanish"/"Hispanic", Sefardim literally means "Jews of Spain/Hispania".

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephar...nic_definition

                              Narrow ethnic definition

                              In the narrower ethnic definition, a Sephardi Jew is a Jew descended from the Jews who lived in the Iberian Peninsula in the late 15th century, immediately prior to the issuance of the Alhambra Decree of 1492 by order of the Catholic Monarchs in Spain, and the decree of 1496 in Portugal by order of King Manuel I.

                              In Hebrew, the term "Sephardim Tehorim" (ספרדים טהורים, literally "Pure Sephardim"), derived from a misunderstanding of the initials ס"ט "Samekh Tet" traditionally used with some proper names (which in fact stand for "sofo tov", "may his end be good"[2]), has in recent times come to be used in some quarters to distinguish Sephardim proper "who trace their lineage back to the Iberian/Spanish population" from Sephardim in the broader religious sense.[3] This distinction has also been made in reference to genetic findings in research on Sephardim proper in contrast to other communities of Jews today termed Sephardi more broadly[4]

                              Broad religious definition
                              See also: Sephardic law and customs, Maghrebi Jews, Mizrahi Jews, and Jewish ethnic divisions

                              The modern Israeli Hebrew definition of Sephardi is a much broader, religious based, definition that generally excludes ethnic considerations. In its most basic form, this broad religious definition of a Sephardi refers to any Jew, of any ethnic background, who follows the customs and traditions of Sepharad. For religious purposes, and in modern Israel, "Sephardim" is most often used in this wider sense which encompasses most non-Ashkenazi Jews who are not ethnically Sephardi, but are in most instances of West Asian or North African origin, but who nonetheless commonly use a Sephardic style of liturgy, meaning a majority of Mizrahi Jews.


                              Additionally, Ethiopian Jews, whose branch of practiced Judaism is known as Haymanot, have recently come under the umbrella of Israel's already broad Sephardic Chief Rabbinate.
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrah...e_designations

                              Today, many identify all non-Ashkenazi rite Jews as Sephardi - in modern Hebrew "Sfaradim", mixing ancestral origin and religious rite. This broader definition of "Sephardim" as including all, or most, Mizrahi Jews is also common in Jewish religious circles. During the past century, the Sephardi rite absorbed the unique rite of the Yemenite Jews and lately Beta Israel religious leaders in Israel have also joined Sefardi rite collectivities, especially following rejection of their Jewishness by Ashkenazi and Hasidic circles.

                              The reason for this classification of all Mizrahim under Sephardi rite is that most Mizrahi communities use much the same religious rituals as Sephardim proper due to historical reasons. The prevalence of the Sephardi rite among Mizrahim is partially a result of Sephardim proper joining some of Mizrahi communities following the 1492 Alhambra Decree, which expelled Jews from Sepharad (Spain and Portugal). Over the last few centuries, the previously distinctive rites of the Mizrahi communities were influenced, superimposed upon or altogether replaced by the rite of the Sephardim, perceived as more prestigious. Even before this assimilation, the original rite of many Jewish Oriental communities was already closer to the Sephardi rite than to the Ashkenazi one. For this reason, "Sephardim" has come to mean not only "Spanish Jews" proper but "Jews of the Spanish rite", just as "Ashkenazim" is used for "Jews of the German rite", whether or not their families originate in Germany.

                              Many of the Sephardi Jews exiled from Spain resettled in greater or lesser numbers in the Arab world, such as Syria and Morocco. In Syria, most eventually intermarried with and assimilated into the larger established communities of Musta'rabim and Mizrahim. In some North African countries such as Morocco, Sephardi Jews came in greater numbers and largely contributed to the Jewish settlements that the pre-existing Jews were assimilated by them. Either way, this assimilation, combined with the use of the Sephardi rite, led to the popular designation and conflation of most non-Ashkenazi Jewish communities from the Middle East and North Africa as "Sephardi rite", whether or not they were descended from Spanish Jews, which is what the terms "Sephardi Jews" and "Sfaradim" properly implied when used in the ethnic as opposed to the religious sense.

                              So MyHeritage's label "Sephardic North African" is misleading in this ethnic genetic identity context. If they're going to use the broad religious custom definition of "Sephardic", then nearly all non-Ashkenazi Jewish groups can be called "Sephardic".

                              But Jews of North African origin are not necessarily genetically Sephardic, most Sephardim have never had anything to do with North Africa.

                              Some Sephardim expelled from Iberia did settle in North Africa & assimilate into pre-existing Maghrebi Jewish communities, many descendants have some Sephardic ancestry, but many North African Jews are not ethnic Sephardim.

                              Many more 1490s expelled Sephardic Jews from Iberia settled not in North Africa but in Ottoman Empire, e.g. Yugoslavia, Balkans, Greece, Anatolia, Near East, even the Levant/Middle East, mixing/assimilating with pre-existing local Jewish communities.

                              And of course more than half of all Sephardic Jews under rule of Spanish or Portuguese monarchies in 1490s chose to stay put where they were, accepting forced conversions, becoming 'conversos' in Spain/Portugal, or 'neofiti' in Italy/Sicily.

                              MyHeritage doesn't have any categories for any of these groups nor which would match up with FTDNA's "Sephardic" category linked firmly to Iberian origin.


                              I wonder what exactly criteria FamilyTreeDNA uses in MyOrigins 2.0 to specifically trace 'true' Sephardim with ethnic/genetic origins in Iberia.


                              Of course it is naturally more difficult to discern Sephardic Jewish ancestry DNA compared to Ashkenazi Jews who for many centuries largely kept to themselves only marrying within the 'tribe' forming a clear distinct group.

                              On the other hand, especially since 1492 Alhambra Decree, true ethnic Sephardic Jews heavily intermingled & assimilated into other local populations.

                              Sephardim who fled the Inquisition mixed/assimilated into other pre-existing Jewish communities like Mizrahi/Magrebhi Jews of Middle Eastern/North African genetic origin.

                              Sephardim who stayed put accepting forced conversion to Christianity, whether conversos of Spain/Portugal or neofiti of Italy/Sicily, over generations mixed/assimilated much more with local Christian populations, even as some continued to secretly practice crypto-Judaism or at least pass on Judaic traditions of various sorts in various ways to varying extents.

                              The degree to which Sephardic Jews in Southern Europe mixed with non-Jewish populations would have been unthinkable to Ashkenazi Jews in central/eastern Europe or Russia who rarely married outside their 'tribe' well into the 20th century.

                              That makes it much harder today to trace specifically Sephardic Jewish ancestry with roots in pre-1492 Sepharad i.e. Spanish & Portuguese kingdoms & surrounding environs before both Spain & Portugal started Inquisitions forcing Sephardic Jews to convert or leave in the 1490s.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Rakkaus View Post
                                MyOrigins is the only test that has Sephardic Iberian as a category.

                                23&Me only gave me 0.1% Ashkenazi.

                                AncestryDNA gave me 3% European Jewish which I believe is Ashkenazi.


                                MyHeritage I have not taken their own test, I did submit my raw DNA data from other tests, I did not get any of their Jewish categories.

                                MyHeritage tests for a number of "Jewish" categories, though it doesn't test for true Sephardic Iberian either.

                                MyHeritage has Jewish categories for:
                                "Ashkenazi Jewish"
                                "Yemenite Jewish"
                                "Ethiopian Jewish"
                                "Mizrahi Jewish-Iranian/Iraqi"
                                "Sephardic Jewish-North African"

                                These categories are not as comprehensive as first appear, especially for Sephardic ancestry, and moreover the labels are misleading if not inaccurate.

                                FamilyTreeDNA actually got it right in tracing ETHNIC/GENETIC Sephardic ancestry specifically to Iberia in MyOrigins 2.0.

                                "Sephardic" has different meanings.

                                Jews of Middle Eastern/North African origin often identify as "Sephardic" in terms of religious rite/custom/traditions; Ashkenazim often group all non-Ashkenazi Jews as "Sephardic"...

                                ...but Middle Eastern/North African Jews are better described as Mizrahi/Magrehbi in terms of ethnic/genetic origin as they may have no connection to Sepharad i.e. Iberia.

                                "Sephardic" comes from Hebrew name for Spain "Sepharad"... just as "Ashkenazi" comes from Hebrew name "Ashkenaz" for Germany.

                                Technically, true Sephardic Jews must have descent from Iberian Jews who lived in Spain and Portugal until either expelled or forced to convert by Inquisitions in 1490s.

                                Sefardí means "Spanish"/"Hispanic", Sefardim literally means "Jews of Spain/Hispania".

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephar...nic_definition



                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrah...e_designations




                                So MyHeritage's label "Sephardic North African" is misleading in this ethnic genetic identity context. If they're going to use the broad religious custom definition of "Sephardic", then nearly all non-Ashkenazi Jewish groups can be called "Sephardic".

                                But Jews of North African origin are not necessarily genetically Sephardic, most Sephardim have never had anything to do with North Africa.

                                Some Sephardim expelled from Iberia did settle in North Africa & assimilate into pre-existing Maghrebi Jewish communities, many descendants have some Sephardic ancestry, but many North African Jews are not ethnic Sephardim.

                                Many more 1490s expelled Sephardic Jews from Iberia settled not in North Africa but in Ottoman Empire, e.g. Yugoslavia, Balkans, Greece, Anatolia, Near East, even the Levant/Middle East, mixing/assimilating with pre-existing local Jewish communities.

                                And of course more than half of all Sephardic Jews under rule of Spanish or Portuguese monarchies in 1490s chose to stay put where they were, accepting forced conversions, becoming 'conversos' in Spain/Portugal, or 'neofiti' in Italy/Sicily.

                                MyHeritage doesn't have any categories for any of these groups nor which would match up with FTDNA's "Sephardic" category linked firmly to Iberian origin.


                                I wonder what exactly criteria FamilyTreeDNA uses in MyOrigins 2.0 to specifically trace 'true' Sephardim with ethnic/genetic origins in Iberia.


                                Of course it is naturally more difficult to discern Sephardic Jewish ancestry DNA compared to Ashkenazi Jews who for many centuries largely kept to themselves only marrying within the 'tribe' forming a clear distinct group.

                                On the other hand, especially since 1492 Alhambra Decree, true ethnic Sephardic Jews heavily intermingled & assimilated into other local populations.

                                Sephardim who fled the Inquisition mixed/assimilated into other pre-existing Jewish communities like Mizrahi/Magrebhi Jews of Middle Eastern/North African genetic origin.

                                Sephardim who stayed put accepting forced conversion to Christianity, whether conversos of Spain/Portugal or neofiti of Italy/Sicily, over generations mixed/assimilated much more with local Christian populations, even as some continued to secretly practice crypto-Judaism or at least pass on Judaic traditions of various sorts in various ways to varying extents.

                                The degree to which Sephardic Jews in Southern Europe mixed with non-Jewish populations would have been unthinkable to Ashkenazi Jews in central/eastern Europe or Russia who rarely married outside their 'tribe' well into the 20th century.

                                That makes it much harder today to trace specifically Sephardic Jewish ancestry with roots in pre-1492 Sepharad i.e. Spanish & Portuguese kingdoms & surrounding environs before both Spain & Portugal started Inquisitions forcing Sephardic Jews to convert or leave in the 1490s.
                                Since you do not have Sephardic or Jewish component (13%)on any other calculator, I doubt if MO2 is accurate. Some Jews show an Iberian component on My Heritage but that does not prove Sephardic.

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