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  • Eastern European?

    My results are in, yay.
    I got 67% Eastern Europe, 21% British Isles, 9% Scandinavian and 3% Iberian.
    I'm very surprised about the high amount of Eastern. I mean I'm very happy about it. The thing is: I'm from Germany, my papertrail tells me my paternal ancestors are mostly prussian, boheme and kashubian. We have lots of Polish and Czech surnames and people in our tree. I just didn't know it was that much. Is there any chance that my German is part of the Eastern Europe? My maternal grandfather is from Berlin, his ancestors from West Prussia, my maternal grandmother has some Franconian background.
    I'm also curious about the British Isles and Scandinavian. I guess this is my German?
    I'm very surprised about the Iberian but also very happy about it. I didn't know of any Spanish or Portuguese ancestry.

    On ancientOrigins I got 12% Metal Age Invader, 42% Farmer, 46% Hunter-Gatherer and 0& Non-European. What does that mean for my background? Could someone help me?

  • #2
    Angela Merkel

    Well..., if you consider that the paternal grandfather of German Chancellor Angela Merkel (born Angela Kasner) was a German of Polish ethnicity (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwik_Kaźmierczak for the details), she would probably get at least 25%.

    However, that 25% is not my point. My point is that she was aware of her grandfather Polish ethnicity, but if one looks at the names of her parents and grandparents, it is not self-evident:
    • Ludwig Kasner & Margarete (her last name is unknown to me, but it is said she was of "true" German ethnicity)
    • Willi Jentzsch & Gertrud Drange
    • Horst Kasner & Herlinde Jentzsch

    None of them was technically born in Poland, they all were born in Prussia or Germany, if we remove Gdańsk from the equation (in 1928, when Herlinde Jentzsch was born there, it was Free City of Danzig).

    Gertrud Drange was from Silesia (Śląsk), so she could have had some Slavic ancestry. I am not discussing that, just pointing out hypothetical scenarios. After all, Berlin has Slavic etymology, and West Slavic inhabitants of areas next to the current German-Polish border were all not annihilated, but often germanized. Parts of nowadays Austria were using Slavic language until 19th century. In the Habsburg Empire, ethnic Czechs could have used German language and upon migration to one of German states be mistaken in the official documents as Germans.

    In Germany and Western parts of Poland it is very difficult to establish origins since settlers from Germany were being invited to Poland (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bambrzy for a short example), while Polish seasonal workers were migrating to Germany (initially possibly only males, but later for certain also females - no, I am not talking about 20th or 21st century).

    Going back to Bambrzy example. Those settlers came from the areas around Bamberg. And historical sources point out that in the 10th century the countryside there was inhabited for the most part by Slavs. Rewind 700+ years, and nobody would have remembered about that, but possibly their gene pool did not change too much.


    I would say, yes, there is a reason that no obvious German DNA pattern exist. However, that would be a much longer story.


    Good luck in searching for your family!

    Mr. W

    P.S.
    I was here when Family Finder was introduced, and when the predecessor of myOrigins came. And after all those years, I am still greatly baffled by FTDNA labelling Central Europe as Eastern Europe. As if Cold War and its language was still in existence. Yes, I can see that East Europe is aligned to modern country borders... By the way, there are different claims to the centre of Europe. Most often that would be some point in Poland, sometimes a little bit south to it, but there are also claims made in points East to Poland.
    Last edited by dna; 7th October 2017, 06:16 AM.

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    • #3
      MyOrigins 2.0 gives out Eastern European very easily and some types of German can definitely get marked as Eastern European (I've even seen some get a chunk of their French called Eastern European on this new test version!).

      Kashubians would be expected to test hugely Eastern European though despite their western location.

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      • #4
        Kashubians would be expected to test hugely Eastern European though despite their western location.
        I manage a kit from someone who is Kashubian and these are her results:

        British Isles < 1%
        East Europe 79%
        Finland < 2%
        Scandinavia 12%
        Southeast Europe 5%
        Iberia 0%
        West and Central Europe 0%

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by wombat View Post
          MyOrigins 2.0 gives out Eastern European very easily and some types of German can definitely get marked as Eastern European (I've even seen some get a chunk of their French called Eastern European on this new test version!).

          Kashubians would be expected to test hugely Eastern European though despite their western location.
          FTDNA should stop spreading confusion and stop labelling Central Europe as Eastern Europe.

          I could buy them a nice poster showing Europe on a map, if I knew they would change their naming convention...

          Just for reference


          Mr. W

          P.S.
          Let me repeat from my earlier posts.

          Of course all depends on assumptions, but in geography the central point in Europe is somewhere in Poland or even somewhere eastward(!) or to south-east of Poland.

          Only during the Cold War, anything East of the Elbe was Eastern Europe. Only during the Cold War, most of the Central Europe was amalgamated into the Eastern Europe. The following picture shows how Central Europe looks like in political and cultural terms.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by outOfsinclair View Post
            My results are in, yay.
            I got 67% Eastern Europe, 21% British Isles, 9% Scandinavian and 3% Iberian.
            I'm very surprised about the high amount of Eastern. I mean I'm very happy about it. The thing is: I'm from Germany, my papertrail tells me my paternal ancestors are mostly prussian, boheme and kashubian. We have lots of Polish and Czech surnames and people in our tree. I just didn't know it was that much. Is there any chance that my German is part of the Eastern Europe?
            According to the My Origins Map, the eastern part of Germany can count as western Europe or eastern Europe.

            Comment


            • #7
              I often read Switzerland described as "Central Europe". Is this accurate? Seems more Western European to me.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NCroots View Post
                I often read Switzerland described as "Central Europe". Is this accurate? Seems more Western European to me.
                It could be something cultural, like Weißwurstäquator in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weißwurstäquator.

                Mr. W

                P.S.
                Encyclopædia Britannica from 1911 places Switzerland in Central Europe...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Try the Gedmatch MDLP Project calculator. Module K16 Modern. I'd be interested in knowing what kind of mix that returns for you.

                  My father's mother was an ethnic German born in Ukraine. Her contribution shows up as Ukrainian, Zaporizhian Cossack, Bulgarian or Belarusian under the alternate best-fit scenarios under K16 Modern.

                  As for genealogical matches with specific people, there aren't that many, but a rough estimate is that 2/3 of them are exclusively/primarily ethnic Germans from Poland, with another 1/3 of ethnic Poles. There are a few isolated incidents of ethnic Russians, Czechs.

                  MDLP Project, K16 Modern project seems to be the most accurate calculator, at least for my specific situation. On paper I'm a mix of about 38% Irish, 25% Baden-Wuerttemberg, 12% ethnic Germans from Bohemia, 25% ethnic Germans from Ukraine (i.e., my father's mother). About 13 of the 20 alternate 4-factor best-fit scenarios in MDLP Project, K16 Modern seem to nail this pretty tight. I'm impressed because it's really hard to get admixtures right.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    @DNA - At least since I've been born (which is well, well past Cold War start period), I've barely seen the term Central Europe used by anyone. All I ever see and hear is Western and Eastern (or Northern and Southern) for the most part. Pretty much everyone uses and see Eastern Europe as defined here (although the Baltics are in argument at times as they prefer to be seen as Northern European rather than Eastern, culturally, Latvia for one, is closer to a German/Swedish mix than to Eastern European although most in the West used to, and many still, think of them as Russian and with strong Russian cultural background, mostly Orthodox and using Cyrillic and so on none of which are at all the case, they had their own culture and then the outside influences were mostly German and Swedish actually).

                    Genetically it seems though that the DNA actually tends to match the Cold War definitions much better than what you list as the old terms using Central Europe. So it probably makes sense for the DNA companies to use the post-Cold War type labels since they actually seem to match the DNA better. Pretty much everything east of Germany and Austria seems to tie together genetically closer than to anywhere to the west (although a few of the places, like the Baltics, have stronger cultural ties to the west and north than to the east; for Poland I think it is somewhat split with some parts seem to have more western influence culturally and many others much more eastern; of course it's all somewhat of a mix).

                    Some recent studies found that you can split Europe in a few main groups DNA-wise (although it always tricky)

                    Anyway they found an Eastern group that was distinct from Western (although Western Southeastern can have some overlap a touch with bits of some Slavic Balkan) and they found they could split their Eastern region into three groupings which they called:

                    1. Eastern European:
                    based upon three sub categories

                    West Slavic - Polish, Sorbs, Czechs (although they graded into Western Europe somewhat), Slovakians

                    East Slavic - Belorussians, Ukrainians, North Russians, Central Russians, Southern Russians (with apparently Belorussians, Ukrainians and South Russians the closest matching)

                    Baltic - Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians (although Estonians have some autosomal ties to Finland, much closer than for the two Baltic speaking Baltic countries, they are nonetheless actually much closer autosomally overall to the Baltic speaking Baltic countries than to the Finland)
                    -------------------------
                    2. South Slavic:
                    Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Montenegrians, Serbians, Hungarians, Romanians and probably Macedonians
                    -------------------
                    3. Albanians and Greeks into a Balkan/Greek group of their own that apparently would be as from the South Slavic Group as the Broadly Northwestern European group is from the Eastern European group above and that they are farther from the South Slavic Group than the South Slavic Group is from the Eastern European Group. So groups 1 and 2 were much closer to each other than to 3 which was not much closer at all then say Western Group was so in the end they say remove the Albanian/Greek group from the Eastern Group and make a Greek Group.

                    The DNA test companies often mix #3 into #2 which probably muddles the tests up a bit and some mix parts of #2 into #1 which also probably doesn't help things any.
                    Last edited by wombat; 11th November 2017, 11:47 PM.

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                    • #11
                      What really makes no sense is what DNA.Land does where it calls the northern half of what FTDNA calls Eastern Europe the Northern Slavic category even though it peaks in the Baltics who are not Slavic! That is really confusing. And then for their heat map, unless you have some Ashkenazi, they don't show any heat over Poland or the Baltics and make it seem like your ancestry is east of the Baltics and Poland even if you are almost 100% Baltic and/or Polish.

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                      • #12
                        I think it's almost guaranteed that the FTDNA Eastern Europe cluster includes much Eastern Germanic and even Bavarian ,Franconian ,Saxon and Prussian dna (&others). This dna has become so intimately entwined over the past 1000+ years in many people particularly of Czech ,Sorbian ,Slovak & Silesian origins that it may not be able to be separated out due to the highly admixed reference populations behind these calculators.Even ancient dna shows admixture between the groups so it is very difficult to separate an eastern german from a western slav.
                        Slavic & Germanic refer to languages only as in the centre of Europe it has literally been a melting pot of various tribes , cultures and languages for millennia. See the very informative research by Kushniarevich et al 2015 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0135820 , which showed great differences autosomally between the various slavic speaking peoples. All people of any of the various language groups will have a fair share of dna from the other groups. For this all to show as 100% Eastern European takes people no further into finding anything meaningful in their quest for their ethnogenesis.
                        I truly hope FTDNA attempts at getting better granularity on this for Origins 3. I do acknowledge though that no cluster is going to be perfectly defined.

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