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Italian - Iberian

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  • Italian - Iberian



    Hi. I apologize if this post is in the wrong section.

    I'm just wondering . . .

    How common is it for Italians to have Iberian DNA?

    Thanks in advance.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Tabitha View Post


    Hi. I apologize if this post is in the wrong section.

    I'm just wondering . . .

    How common is it for Italians to have Iberian DNA?

    Thanks in advance.

    Northern Italians or Southern Italians?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Tabitha View Post


      Hi. I apologize if this post is in the wrong section.

      I'm just wondering . . .

      How common is it for Italians to have Iberian DNA?

      Thanks in advance.

      I depends there are also regional differences in the Iberian peninsula when you look at deep ancestry the Portuguese share a lot of DNA with northern Italians more so than with the Spaniards of north east Spain or the southern French this appears to be very ancient I'm guessing due to a migration from the Alps to north west Iberian peninsula. Whereas the shared DNA in southern Italians and Spaniards appears to be more recent. The percentages vary depending on the test.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by malchik View Post
        Northern Italians or Southern Italians?
        Southern - Campania. Yet, my mother and I have no Middle Eastern or Asia Minor DNA so we may not be your typical Southern Italians.

        We both have Iberian though. Not a large percentage.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AFH View Post
          I depends there are also regional differences in the Iberian peninsula when you look at deep ancestry the Portuguese share a lot of DNA with northern Italians more so than with the Spaniards of north east Spain or the southern French this appears to be very ancient I'm guessing due to a migration from the Alps to north west Iberian peninsula. Whereas the shared DNA in southern Italians and Spaniards appears to be more recent. The percentages vary depending on the test.
          Thank you. One of my great grandfathers is a mystery. We assumed he was Italian because my great grandmother was. But now that Iberian has come up in our results, I thought maybe he could have been Spanish. That's why I wondered if it was ancient, recent, or VERY recent.

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          • #6
            Ancient Iberian DNA is common due to Roman expansion from Italy to Spain. If you have a big chunk (25%), it could be more recent. Less than 10%, probably Romans.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dcx4610 View Post
              Ancient Iberian DNA is common due to Roman expansion from Italy to Spain. If you have a big chunk (25%), it could be more recent. Less than 10%, probably Romans.
              Ancient Roman DNA in Iberians? I don't think that's what is contributing to most of the ancient Italian DNA in Iberians. I would expect to see a whole lot more Asia minor in Iberians if that were the case. The ancient Italian DNA in the Portuguese specifically is Northern Italian and the places where I see small amounts of Asia minor is where the Roman settlement was concentrated and it is small amounts.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tabitha View Post
                Southern - Campania. Yet, my mother and I have no Middle Eastern or Asia Minor DNA so we may not be your typical Southern Italians.

                We both have Iberian though. Not a large percentage.

                The best way to see if you have any significant Iberian ancestry is to test with all 3 companies (FTDNA, 23andme and AncestryDNA) and look for IBD matches that have Iberian ancestry. If you want to try another method which can give you some clues, you can study your GEDmatch results and/or test one parent at 23andme, so your ancestry composition results will be more accurate than before.

                I believe 23andme offers the best ancestry estimate to date (i.e. for estimating recent ancestry). AncestryDNA also has some very interesting new features, that can show you the regions where you're connected to through your matches.

                Here an overview of what I get with these 3 companies:

                On AncestryDNA I get: 28% Europe South (region: Southern Italy), 11% Caucasus (region: Southern Italy), 2% Middle Eastern (region: Southern Italy), 5% European Jewish (part of low confidence regions and related to my S_Italian ancestry) 10% Iberian Peninsula (must be ancient, or miscalculation due to my mixed north/south background), 18 % Europe West (region: Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium & Luxembourg), 25% Great Britain (must be my Dutch side), 1% Scandinavia (region: Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium & Luxembourg).

                23andme (1 parent tested):

                Northwestern European: 51.7%
                Southern European: 42.5%
                from which 41.5% Italian, 1% broadly Southern European
                Middle Eastern: 5.7%

                FTDNA:

                British Isles: 49%
                Southeast Europe: 38%
                East Europe: 8%
                Jewish diaspora: 3%
                Asia Minor: 2%

                MyHeritage has issues splitting up my 2 ancestries:
                57% Italian
                38% Northern and Western Europe
                2.9% Ashkenazi
                1.1% West Asian
                1% Middle East
                Last edited by Dimanto; 2nd January 2018, 01:02 PM.

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                • #9
                  Over at AncestryDNA, their data says 25% of people native to "Europe South" (formerly Italy/Greece) get results in Iberian Peninsula. So I'd say it's fairly common for people with Italian ancestry to get results in Iberia. Especially if it's a small amount, I really wouldn't think much of it.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Germanica View Post
                    Over at AncestryDNA, their data says 25% of people native to "Europe South" (formerly Italy/Greece) get results in Iberian Peninsula. So I'd say it's fairly common for people with Italian ancestry to get results in Iberia. Especially if it's a small amount, I really wouldn't think much of it.
                    AncestryDNA always had issues effectively splitting up Italians from Iberians, especially for people of northern Italian ancestry. In my case part of the Iberian percentage must be from my Dutch side; if not the percentages are way off, given the fact that I get a combination of Caucasus, Europe South, Middle Eastern and European Jewish which together makes 46%. Adding the 10% Iberian would be too much, given the fact that my Dutch side is very northern shifting towards Denmark and shows no signs of southern European ancestry (I've done extensive genealogical research and tested several family members).
                    Last edited by Dimanto; 2nd January 2018, 12:59 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dimanto View Post
                      AncestryDNA always had issues effectively splitting up Italians from Iberians, especially for people of northern Italian ancestry.
                      I don't think it's just AncestryDNA - I think it's common because neighboring regions tend to share so much DNA, it makes it difficult/impossible to always tell them apart.

                      Personally, I had one South Italian grandparent, and I get nothing in Iberia from AncestryDNA, FTDNA, 23andMe, or MyHeritage. But that doesn't mean lots of other people don't.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Germanica View Post
                        I don't think it's just AncestryDNA - I think it's common because neighboring regions tend to share so much DNA, it makes it difficult/impossible to always tell them apart.

                        Personally, I had one South Italian grandparent, and I get nothing in Iberia from AncestryDNA, FTDNA, 23andMe, or MyHeritage. But that doesn't mean lots of other people don't.
                        No, this is nonsense for one: Iberia (lacks the Near Eastern element Italians have) is not really a ''neighboring region'' and secondly the fact that on a PCA Southern Italians are basically inbetween Northern Italians/Iberians and some populations native to the Levant like e.g. the Druze, with some Southerners even plotting with Cypriots (see first attached image). Even on a regional level Italians are easy to tell apart from one another (effectively dividing north, center, south with high accuracy), let alone a native of Spain, Portugal or Southwester France. There is no written history of massive geneflow from Iberia to Italy, so most of the shared ancestry we have must date back to the neolithic and could never be named 'Iberian'.

                        I will illustrate my point by sharing a few PCA's:

                        The last one is an example based on my DNA and that of my mom who is fully North Dutch and my father who is fully Neapolitan. As you see, I plot near Northern Italians and Iberians.

                        They say this calculator (the one AncestryDNA uses) shows ancient ancestry but then again, they'd first have to prove that there was significant geneflow from Iberia to Southern Italy at any moment of history and be justified calling it 'Iberian'. It's mainly with people of mixed background like me, that they have issues with when using this method.
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by Dimanto; 4th January 2018, 08:20 PM.

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                        • #13
                          I'm not sure how anyone can think that any area in the Mediterranean isn't a neighboring region.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Germanica View Post
                            I'm not sure how anyone can think that any area in the Mediterranean isn't a neighboring region.
                            I will share with you several citations of different scientific articles about the Italian peninsula.

                            Within Italy

                            ''A correlation between genetic and geographic structure in Europe has also been found, with a detectable distinction between Southern Italians and other Europeans''

                            ''The sensitivity of the clusteralgorithm in assigning each sample to the correct macroarea was 96.43%, 86.55%, 92.00%, 94.44% and 100% for Aosta Valley,Northern Italy, Central Italy, Southern Italy and Sardinia, respectively, whereas the specificity was 98.16%, 96.68%, 94.80%, 99.56% and 100% respectively. In view of the above results, the Italian regions were divided into five groups for the statistical analyses: Northern, Central, Southern Italy, Aosta Valley and Sardinia''

                            ''The genetic distance between Southern and Northern Italians (Fst= 0.0013) is comparable to that between individuals living in different political units (ie, Iberians-Romanians Fst= 0.0011; British-French Fst= 0.0007),and, interestingly, in 450% of all the possible pairwise comparisons within Europe (Supplementary Figure S7).''

                            The Italian genome reflects the history of Europe and the Mediterranean basin (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...erranean_basin [accessed Jan 10 2018].

                            Within Spain:

                            ''In general, the Spanish population is similar to the Western and Northern Europeans, but has a more diverse haplotypic structure. Moreover, the Spanish population is also largely homogeneous within itself, although patterns of micro-structure may be able to predict locations of origin from distant regions.''

                            Now back to answering your comment:

                            Sure, we Southern Europeans have a shared Sardianian (Neolithic-like) genetic component but originally this came from the East and not from the West; through the northern shores of the Mediterranean, from Greece/Italy and then Spain/Portugal.

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                            • #15
                              Historically, there was a major Spanish military campaign in southern Italy around the time of Columbus. I am fuzzy on the details, but it was competition, I read somewhere, for man power to the Spanish empire in the New World.

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