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  • #16
    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN View Post
    Historically, there was a major Spanish military campaign in southern Italy around the time of Columbus. I am fuzzy on the details, but it was competition, I read somewhere, for man power to the Spanish empire in the New World.
    Sure, we had a heavy Aragonese/ Spanish presence in Naples. In case of Naples the soldiers were mostly stationed in the famous Spanish quarters ''quartieri spagnoli'', the Iberians also left the Aragonese castle and also some of the Spanish language seems to have influenced the Neapolitan language. However, no significant geneflow is ever recorded and this is clearly seen in the the present genetic makeup of present day Southern Italians, who don't differ all that much from each other. Also the Aragonese''Iberians'' were mostly perceived as being an opressive foreign force which eventually lead to a revolt lead by Masaniello in 1647.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaniello

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragonese_Castle

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartieri_Spagnoli

    http://www.visitnaples.eu/en/diario-...nguage-naples/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5434004/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragonese_Castle
    Last edited by Dimanto; 11th January 2018, 04:28 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Dimanto View Post
      I will share with you several citations of different scientific articles about the Italian peninsula.

      Within Italy

      ''A correlation between genetic and geographic structure in Europe has also been found, with a detectable distinction between Southern Italians and other Europeans''

      ''The sensitivity of the clusteralgorithm in assigning each sample to the correct macroarea was 96.43%, 86.55%, 92.00%, 94.44% and 100% for Aosta Valley,Northern Italy, Central Italy, Southern Italy and Sardinia, respectively, whereas the specificity was 98.16%, 96.68%, 94.80%, 99.56% and 100% respectively. In view of the above results, the Italian regions were divided into five groups for the statistical analyses: Northern, Central, Southern Italy, Aosta Valley and Sardinia''

      ''The genetic distance between Southern and Northern Italians (Fst= 0.0013) is comparable to that between individuals living in different political units (ie, Iberians-Romanians Fst= 0.0011; British-French Fst= 0.0007),and, interestingly, in 450% of all the possible pairwise comparisons within Europe (Supplementary Figure S7).''

      The Italian genome reflects the history of Europe and the Mediterranean basin (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...erranean_basin [accessed Jan 10 2018].

      Within Spain:

      ''In general, the Spanish population is similar to the Western and Northern Europeans, but has a more diverse haplotypic structure. Moreover, the Spanish population is also largely homogeneous within itself, although patterns of micro-structure may be able to predict locations of origin from distant regions.''

      Now back to answering your comment:

      Sure, we Southern Europeans have a shared Sardianian (Neolithic-like) genetic component but originally this came from the East and not from the West; through the northern shores of the Mediterranean, from Greece/Italy and then Spain/Portugal.
      This is just saying there's a distinction between Northern Italians and Southern, with Northerners being more genetically similar to Northwest Europeans, and that Spain/Portugal is closer to Northwest Europeans too, meaning they are closer to Northern Italians than Southern. So it does not mean that Italians aren't similar to Iberians, just that you're more likely to get Iberian results if you're Northern Italian than Southern. I never specified North or South Italy. Nor does this prove that Italy and Iberia aren't neighboring regions.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Germanica View Post
        This is just saying there's a distinction between Northern Italians and Southern, with Northerners being more genetically similar to Northwest Europeans, and that Spain/Portugal is closer to Northwest Europeans too, meaning they are closer to Northern Italians than Southern. So it does not mean that Italians aren't similar to Iberians, just that you're more likely to get Iberian results if you're Northern Italian than Southern. I never specified North or South Italy. Nor does this prove that Italy and Iberia aren't neighboring regions.
        The core disagreement we have is that the percentage of Iberian scored on AncestryDNA by someone of Italian and in my case Southern Italian descent, is easily justified by using arguments like:

        Spain is a neighboring region and therefore it's normal for an Italian to score a certain percentage, in the 10-25% range and call it Iberian without giving plausible reasons of how these percentages came to be.

        Centuries of Spanish domination existed in Italy and hence we can state that there was much geneflow in Southern Italy coming from Iberia, probably through the soldiers that were stationed in specific area's in the south.
        I therefore conclude it is normal for Southern Italians to score a certain amount of Iberian without the need of further empirical evidence to back of my claims.

        These tests run on software that use a particular set of reference populations. Sometimes they have issues assigning parts of someone's ancestry to the right region of origins because of the high diversity in haplotypes existing in Southern Italy. For example I score 11% Caucasus which is linked to the genetic region of Southern Italy. Geneflow from the Caucasus to Southern italy goes back thousands of years. The same would be true for Iberia as we can score similar amounts, although Iberia is not being linked to the genetic region of Southern Italy at AncestryDNA. Also I've noticed that individuals of the same region can score varying amounts of Iberian and Caucasus and/or Middle Eastern (similar to GEDmatch' Oracle predictions), while at the same time easily clustering together on a PCA plot. I think when the ethnicity calculators are more matured and have better sampled several regions in Italy, these absurdly high percentages of Iberian will disappear, just like they have on 23andme's Ancestry Composition.

        You could try to experiment with MyHeritage's ehtnicity calculator by uploading several kits from different companies and look at the varrying results you'll get. On one occasion I get 56% Italian, some Ashkenazi Jewish and West Asian - on the other 52% Italian with almost 5% North African and even an additioal 0.7% West African, while no other test ever gave me anything near SSA. On FTDNA I get 38% Southeast Europe, 8% East Europe, 3% Jewish diaspora and 2% Asia Minor. The Southeast European is the only estimation that seems allright given the strong similarities between Southern Italians and those from the Southern Balkan and Greece.
        Last edited by Dimanto; 17th January 2018, 06:47 PM.

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        • #19
          In north Italians, it seems to me that it varies wildly. Below you can see my mother's MyOrigins. She is full blooded north Italian, from Veneto region. As you can see, she has 0% Iberian dna. But I saw some months ago the MyOrigins of the grandmother of a friend of mine, also full blooded Veneta, and she had 32% Iberia.
          Attached Files

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AFH View Post
            Ancient Roman DNA in Iberians? I don't think that's what is contributing to most of the ancient Italian DNA in Iberians. I would expect to see a whole lot more Asia minor in Iberians if that were the case. The ancient Italian DNA in the Portuguese specifically is Northern Italian and the places where I see small amounts of Asia minor is where the Roman settlement was concentrated and it is small amounts.
            Do you know when this Northern Italian migration to Iberia occurred? It was in the Middle Ages?

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            • #21
              This is a question I have raised myself, having great-grandparents from southern Italy & Sicily... and according to FTDNA's MyOrigins 2.0 test about 1/3 Iberian origin DNA.

              I was so surprised I doubted maybe they had looked at the wrong FamilyFinder sample, spent $19 transferring autosomal raw data from 23&Me to FTDNA and...overall mostly same MyOrigins results, about 1/3 DNA from Iberia, with part of that Sephardic Jewish Iberian.

              29-34% Iberian:
              19-21% Iberian European
              10-13% Sephardic Iberian


              Spanish did rule Southern Italy + Sicily for ~400 years (with some wars/uprisings interrupting) until Garibaldi conquered Spanish Bourbon Two Sicilies kingdom, also ruled Sardinia & Milan at some points.


              I was dubious as there's no record of mass colonization of Italy by Iberians even if Aragonese/Spanish territory.

              But royals, nobles, officials, merchants/traders, etc. of Iberian origin and certainly armies of Iberian origin were stationed in or passed through much of Italy at different points in time... marauding soldiers always leave their genetic mark.

              When talking about tiny Italian villages, it wouldn't take too many Spanish troops or traders or migrants or whatever to leave a genetic imprint, with some Italian families perhaps randomly having Iberian ancestors but not other seemingly similar families from the same parts of Italy.

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              • #22
                Almost every DNA company provides a plot chart of their populations, showing how genetically close or distant populations. All of them show how Italy and Spain/Iberia are genetically similar. I've attached FTDNA's chart - the closer the dots are to one another, the more genetically similar they are. As you can see, Spain and Italy are grouped right next to one another and have some overlap. Whenever there is genetic similarly or shared DNA between two groups, it's not unusual for a native or descendant of one to get results in the other.
                Attached Files

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                • #23
                  Northern Italians in Portuguese ancestry

                  Originally posted by AFH View Post
                  Ancient Roman DNA in Iberians? I don't think that's what is contributing to most of the ancient Italian DNA in Iberians. I would expect to see a whole lot more Asia minor in Iberians if that were the case. The ancient Italian DNA in the Portuguese specifically is Northern Italian and the places where I see small amounts of Asia minor is where the Roman settlement was concentrated and it is small amounts.

                  Could you explain better about this Northern Italian component in Portuguese ancestry? When and how did this migration happened?
                  I hope it can somehow explain the strange results of my aunt. After a long and careful research on her genealogy, I'm absolutely sure that she does not have any "modern Italian" ancestor (i.e., back to the 1700's). According to my research, she is 50% Portuguese, 37,5% German and 12,5% French (from Bordeaux and Marseille nobility, maybe the closest link with possible Italian or Sardinian merchants).
                  However, her test presented an unexpected "Italian" for three different companies:

                  FTDNA - 16% Southeast Europe
                  My Heritage - 11% Italian
                  Dna.Land - 25% South/Central Europe + 5,6% Sardinian (!)
                  Which nearly confirms such ancestry. At the same time, "Iberian" appeared always under my 50% expectation:

                  FTDNA: 30%
                  My Heritage: 49,4% (very close, in this case)
                  Dna.Land: 15% Southwestern European

                  At first, I immediately thought that this "Italian/Southern European" should represent the Ancient Romans which conquered Iberian Peninsula, but after your coment I understood it should not. Could you shed some light on this?
                  Thank you!

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