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  • #16
    I (probably) understand. I chose a person, then found that we have a match:

    Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
    18 71,440,824 75,539,676 11.3 1,476


    And I checked that this part of the chromosome is painted as West Asian. This is actually pretty interesting, thanks!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by zilch View Post
      I (probably) understand. I chose a person, then found that we have a match:

      Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
      18 71,440,824 75,539,676 11.3 1,476


      And I checked that this part of the chromosome is painted as West Asian. This is actually pretty interesting, thanks!
      Note that West Asian may or may not imply Jewish lines. Have you tried Eurogenes at Gedmatch. I have found MDLP to be most useful for eastern Europe with Eurogenes more relevant for Jewish lines.

      Comment


      • #18
        Because the Ashkenazi Jewish population is endogamous, someone with a single Jewish great grandparent will typically have a disproportionate number of Jewish matches -- perhaps hundreds of them. (Because of the random nature of autosomal DNA inheritance, it is possible, however, that such a person may have inherited relatively few 7 cM+ segments from his or her Ashkenazi ancestor, decreasing the number of matches.)

        On the Eurogenes JTest, people who are fully Ashkenazi typically are reported as having a 25% to 35% Ashkenazi admixture; people who have one Ashkenazi parent might be reported as having an Ashkenazi admixture of 12% to 18%, and people who have one Ashkenazi grandparent might be reported as having an Ashkenazi admixture of 6% to 9%.

        People with a known Ashkenazi great grandparent will typically be reported by the JTest as having an Ashkenazi admixture in excess of the 3% that I understand to be background noise.

        Absent known Ashkenazi ancestry or a large number of Ashkenazi matches, however, I would not rely upon JTest Ashkenazi admixture percentages to infer recent Ashkenazi ancestry (especially where a person has known Italian or Near Eastern ancestry).

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by JeffWexler View Post
          Because the Ashkenazi Jewish population is endogamous, someone with a single Jewish great grandparent will typically have a disproportionate number of Jewish matches -- perhaps hundreds of them. (Because of the random nature of autosomal DNA inheritance, it is possible, however, that such a person may have inherited relatively few 7 cM+ segments from his or her Ashkenazi ancestor, decreasing the number of matches.)

          On the Eurogenes JTest, people who are fully Ashkenazi typically are reported as having a 25% to 35% Ashkenazi admixture; people who have one Ashkenazi parent might be reported as having an Ashkenazi admixture of 12% to 18%, and people who have one Ashkenazi grandparent might be reported as having an Ashkenazi admixture of 6% to 9%.

          People with a known Ashkenazi great grandparent will typically be reported by the JTest as having an Ashkenazi admixture in excess of the 3% that I understand to be background noise.

          Absent known Ashkenazi ancestry or a large number of Ashkenazi matches, however, I would not rely upon JTest Ashkenazi admixture percentages to infer recent Ashkenazi ancestry (especially where a person has known Italian or Near Eastern ancestry).
          Yes the Jtest may have false positives. I would look at the East Med (Levant) component on the other Eurogenes programs, e.g. the default program.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by josh w. View Post
            Yes the Jtest may have false positives. I would look at the East Med (Levant) component on the other Eurogenes programs, e.g. the default program.
            Also look at the West Asian component. In addition use the Oracle 4 option.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by zilch View Post
              Hi all. I have a question concerning genetic genealogy. I purchased Family Finder, and later transferred the results to Gedmatch. On FTDNA myOrigins I get no Jewish diaspora, only 91% European (mixed) and 9% Asia Minor. On Jtest I get 4.5% Ashkenazi, 7.5% East Med, 5.6% West Asian (the rest is an European mix). Now, in my family there was a story that one of the grandmothers was a Jewish convert. Do these result point that the story is not true? Thanks!
              If your grandmother that you believe to be Jewish was 100% Jewish I would expect you to have 100's if not at least 1K Jewish matches in FF. My mother is 50% Jewish (mixture of Ashkenazi and Sephardic from her mother who was 100% Jewish). I am 25% Jewish and have over one thousand Jewish matches in Family Finder. Aside from your breakdown of percentages (I also have a little over 25% Jewish population- 7-8% Sephardic and 18% Ashkenazic) do you have any Jewish matches in your list? I can see you maybe not inheriting as many as me or Josh or as many as my cousins but you should have some???
              Last edited by mollyblum; 4 July 2016, 04:39 PM. Reason: Grammar

              Comment


              • #22
                How do you know which of your Family Finder matches are Jewish?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Surnames, ancestral surnames, and most distant ancestors are a fairly good guide as to the origins of matches (including Jewish matches) in the aggregate, although often not reliable in individual cases.

                  People who are reported on myOrigins as having a Jewish Diaspora admixture can check to see whether they have a substantial number of matches (third to fifth cousins or closer) who are reported as having a Jewish Diaspora admixture.

                  Alternatively, one could send his or her match list to someone who manages Ashkenazi kits and is familiar with the kits' match lists. My guess is that perhaps half of all Ashkenazi Jews are reported as Family Finder matches for each other, so people managing Ashkenazi kits will have a head start in evaluating the matches.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I only have 200 matches in FF... I checked several people from the first 20 positions on the list and found out that (probably) half of them might be Jewish. This is based on surnames, some googling (found one "4th-remote cousin" in Jewish chronicles, another is a lawyer at Florida), and finding one "4th cousin" at Gedmatch (she has ~26 Ashkenazi in Jtest).

                    I'm Polish, so I assumed that the low result on JTest + no Jewish Diaspora on FF mean that the story about Jewish great grandmother can be falsified. So many Jews are of Polish ancestry, couldn't this explain that I have some (supposedly) Jewish matches?

                    I ran Eurogenes-K13 and got in oracle-4:
                    # Population Percent
                    1 Baltic 40.16
                    2 North_Atlantic 26.94
                    3 West_Med 13.89
                    4 East_Med 9.41
                    5 West_Asian 7.94
                    6 South_Asian 1.66

                    EUTest returns:
                    # Population Percent
                    1 SOUTH_BALTIC 26.19
                    2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 18.62
                    3 EAST_EURO 17.04
                    4 ATLANTIC 12.88
                    5 EAST_MED 9.37
                    6 WEST_MED 9.32
                    7 WEST_ASIAN 6.58

                    Then I ran Eurogenes-K36 and got:
                    Armenian 0.63
                    Basque 0.15
                    Central_Euro 7.61
                    East_Balkan 6.99
                    East_Central_Euro 19.10
                    Eastern_Euro 12.43
                    Fennoscandian 13.58
                    French 4.26
                    Iberian 5.39
                    Italian 14.50
                    North_Atlantic 5.31
                    North_Caucasian 1.61
                    North_Sea 5.80
                    West_Caucasian 1.78
                    West_Med 0.86

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      All full Ashkenazim have some amounts of East Mediterranean, Near Eastern, Arabian, and North African in Eurogenes K36, especially significant amounts for East Med and Near Eastern. The first 3 are core elements that the Israelite people must have held. Your results show no sign of them so this might be suggestive that your common ancestor with those possible Ashkenazim was a Pole. On the other hand, your "Italian" affinity is much higher than the Polish average of 3.38%, and you do have a slight "Armenian" affinity, and both of those elements are important features of Ashkenazic genetics as well.

                      The next step is to do segment analysis. Some of these undocumented Polish ancestors left their mark with segments that paint as part "South Baltic" and part "Eastern European" in such estimators as Eurogenes' Jtest and EUtest.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hi khazaria, thanks! Do you happen to know the variance of this Italian affinity in Poland? I just read that there were small Sephardic and Mizrachi (didn't know about those) communities in the places where my g-grandmother came from. This was the only place in Poland with a significant Sephardic population. From the given data, can it be disproved that she was either of those? I never thought about such a possibility.

                        This is both fascinating and confusing :-)
                        Last edited by zilch; 5 July 2016, 07:25 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by zilch View Post
                          I only have 200 matches in FF... I checked several people from the first 20 positions on the list and found out that (probably) half of them might be Jewish. This is based on surnames, some googling (found one "4th-remote cousin" in Jewish chronicles, another is a lawyer at Florida), and finding one "4th cousin" at Gedmatch (she has ~26 Ashkenazi in Jtest).

                          I'm Polish, so I assumed that the low result on JTest + no Jewish Diaspora on FF mean that the story about Jewish great grandmother can be falsified. So many Jews are of Polish ancestry, couldn't this explain that I have some (supposedly) Jewish matches?

                          I ran Eurogenes-K13 and got in oracle-4:
                          # Population Percent
                          1 Baltic 40.16
                          2 North_Atlantic 26.94
                          3 West_Med 13.89
                          4 East_Med 9.41
                          5 West_Asian 7.94
                          6 South_Asian 1.66

                          EUTest returns:
                          # Population Percent
                          1 SOUTH_BALTIC 26.19
                          2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 18.62
                          3 EAST_EURO 17.04
                          4 ATLANTIC 12.88
                          5 EAST_MED 9.37
                          6 WEST_MED 9.32
                          7 WEST_ASIAN 6.58

                          Then I ran Eurogenes-K36 and got:
                          Armenian 0.63
                          Basque 0.15
                          Central_Euro 7.61
                          East_Balkan 6.99
                          East_Central_Euro 19.10
                          Eastern_Euro 12.43
                          Fennoscandian 13.58
                          French 4.26
                          Iberian 5.39
                          Italian 14.50
                          North_Atlantic 5.31
                          North_Caucasian 1.61
                          North_Sea 5.80
                          West_Caucasian 1.78
                          West_Med 0.86
                          You may have to live with ambiguity. I had doubted Ashkenazi ancestry in part because you were showing West Asian. Among Ashkenazis, East Med is much greater than West Asian. Your results do point to the Near East. Mizrachis from that region cannot be ruled out. Southern Italians are close to both Ashkenazis and Sephardis. What does your Oracle 4 population show.
                          By the way MO's location for Ashkenazis is misleading. At Eurogenes, the most important geographical regions for Jews are East Med, Southern Italy and lastly Eastern Europe (not just Poland). DNA Land is a little bit better than MO in showing the Levant and Eastern Europe.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                            What does your Oracle 4 population show.
                            I'll paste the results below (sorry for the long post). This does seem east-central european, doesn't it? The unexpected (for me) are Hungarian and Tuscan.

                            -------------------------------------------------------------

                            Jtest:

                            Using 1 population approximation:
                            1 HU @ 7.604078
                            2 UA @ 8.188671
                            3 PL @ 8.511791
                            4 Ukrainian-Russian @ 10.476881
                            5 West_Russian @ 11.224946
                            6 AT @ 12.496910
                            7 Belorussian @ 12.895081
                            8 Serbian @ 13.141764
                            9 RO @ 15.640847
                            10 Northwest_Russian @ 15.803803
                            11 EE @ 15.888524
                            12 East_Russian @ 16.906557
                            13 South_Finnish @ 16.923462
                            14 LIT @ 17.618767
                            15 East_Finnish @ 18.403797
                            16 North_Russian @ 19.632767
                            17 North_Swedish @ 19.685099
                            18 West_&_Central_German @ 19.827477
                            19 Erzya @ 20.105635
                            20 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 20.448957

                            Using 2 populations approximation:
                            1 50% HU +50% UA @ 3.796730


                            Using 3 populations approximation:
                            1 50% Belorussian +25% Tuscan +25% UA @ 3.574615


                            Using 4 populations approximation:
                            1 LIT + Tuscan + UA + Ukrainian-Russian @ 3.136234
                            2 LIT + Tuscan + UA + UA @ 3.149008
                            3 LIT + PL + Tuscan + Ukrainian-Russian @ 3.309955
                            4 LIT + PL + Tuscan + UA @ 3.334774
                            5 HU + Serbian + UA + UA @ 3.423787
                            6 LIT + Tuscan + Ukrainian-Russian + Ukrainian-Russian @ 3.468759
                            7 LIT + Tuscan + UA + West_Russian @ 3.483831
                            8 Belorussian + Tuscan + UA + UA @ 3.485073
                            9 LIT + Serbian + Serbian + UA @ 3.493384
                            10 Northwest_Russian + Tuscan + UA + UA @ 3.514986
                            11 Belorussian + Tuscan + UA + Ukrainian-Russian @ 3.554668
                            12 Belorussian + Belorussian + Tuscan + UA @ 3.574615
                            13 Belorussian + LIT + Tuscan + UA @ 3.608390
                            14 Northwest_Russian + PL + Tuscan + UA @ 3.629602
                            15 Belorussian + HU + Serbian + UA @ 3.636568
                            16 HU + PL + Serbian + UA @ 3.646230
                            17 LIT + RO + Serbian + UA @ 3.666528
                            18 LIT + PL + Serbian + Serbian @ 3.677135
                            19 Belorussian + PL + Tuscan + UA @ 3.686220
                            20 HU + LIT + Serbian + UA @ 3.693974

                            Eurogenes K13:
                            Using 1 population approximation:
                            1 Croatian @ 4.043084
                            2 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.523828
                            3 Ukrainian @ 6.229197
                            4 South_Polish @ 6.530441
                            5 Moldavian @ 7.250468
                            6 Polish @ 9.952879
                            7 Hungarian @ 10.090275
                            8 Southwest_Russian @ 10.164089
                            9 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 10.533680
                            10 Russian_Smolensk @ 11.962487
                            11 Estonian_Polish @ 12.586098
                            12 Belorussian @ 13.403899
                            13 East_German @ 13.576499
                            14 Serbian @ 14.427799
                            15 Austrian @ 14.637473
                            16 Kargopol_Russian @ 15.162560
                            17 Erzya @ 17.279808
                            18 Southwest_Finnish @ 18.062183
                            19 Estonian @ 18.075253
                            20 Lithuanian @ 18.151476

                            Using 2 populations approximation:
                            1 50% Moldavian +50% Ukrainian @ 2.467287


                            Using 3 populations approximation:
                            1 50% Croatian +25% Croatian +25% Southwest_Russian @ 2.076474


                            Using 4 populations approximation:
                            1 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian @ 1.806712
                            2 Bulgarian + Polish + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 1.931744
                            3 Bulgarian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.014907
                            4 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lithuanian + South_Polish @ 2.045704
                            5 Croatian + Croatian + Croatian + Southwest_Russian @ 2.076474
                            6 Bulgarian + Russian_Smolensk + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.097588
                            7 Croatian + Lithuanian + Romanian + Ukrainian @ 2.110028
                            8 Croatian + Croatian + Croatian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.118343
                            9 Bulgarian + Lithuanian + Moldavian + Polish @ 2.121009
                            10 Lithuanian + Moldavian + Romanian + Ukrainian @ 2.124832
                            11 Romanian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.131657
                            12 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.133527
                            13 Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.173958
                            14 Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + South_Polish + Ukrainian @ 2.185484
                            15 Bulgarian + Russian_Smolensk + South_Polish + Ukrainian @ 2.187053
                            16 Bulgarian + South_Polish + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.187255
                            17 Bulgarian + Polish + Ukrainian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.188543
                            18 Bulgarian + Lithuanian + Moldavian + Ukrainian @ 2.205579
                            19 Croatian + Croatian + Estonian_Polish + Moldavian @ 2.263096
                            20 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lithuanian + Polish @ 2.267665

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by zilch View Post
                              I'll paste the results below (sorry for the long post). This does seem east-central european, doesn't it? The unexpected (for me) are Hungarian and Tuscan.

                              -------------------------------------------------------------

                              Jtest:

                              Using 1 population approximation:
                              1 HU @ 7.604078
                              2 UA @ 8.188671
                              3 PL @ 8.511791
                              4 Ukrainian-Russian @ 10.476881
                              5 West_Russian @ 11.224946
                              6 AT @ 12.496910
                              7 Belorussian @ 12.895081
                              8 Serbian @ 13.141764
                              9 RO @ 15.640847
                              10 Northwest_Russian @ 15.803803
                              11 EE @ 15.888524
                              12 East_Russian @ 16.906557
                              13 South_Finnish @ 16.923462
                              14 LIT @ 17.618767
                              15 East_Finnish @ 18.403797
                              16 North_Russian @ 19.632767
                              17 North_Swedish @ 19.685099
                              18 West_&_Central_German @ 19.827477
                              19 Erzya @ 20.105635
                              20 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 20.448957

                              Using 2 populations approximation:
                              1 50% HU +50% UA @ 3.796730


                              Using 3 populations approximation:
                              1 50% Belorussian +25% Tuscan +25% UA @ 3.574615


                              Using 4 populations approximation:
                              1 LIT + Tuscan + UA + Ukrainian-Russian @ 3.136234
                              2 LIT + Tuscan + UA + UA @ 3.149008
                              3 LIT + PL + Tuscan + Ukrainian-Russian @ 3.309955
                              4 LIT + PL + Tuscan + UA @ 3.334774
                              5 HU + Serbian + UA + UA @ 3.423787
                              6 LIT + Tuscan + Ukrainian-Russian + Ukrainian-Russian @ 3.468759
                              7 LIT + Tuscan + UA + West_Russian @ 3.483831
                              8 Belorussian + Tuscan + UA + UA @ 3.485073
                              9 LIT + Serbian + Serbian + UA @ 3.493384
                              10 Northwest_Russian + Tuscan + UA + UA @ 3.514986
                              11 Belorussian + Tuscan + UA + Ukrainian-Russian @ 3.554668
                              12 Belorussian + Belorussian + Tuscan + UA @ 3.574615
                              13 Belorussian + LIT + Tuscan + UA @ 3.608390
                              14 Northwest_Russian + PL + Tuscan + UA @ 3.629602
                              15 Belorussian + HU + Serbian + UA @ 3.636568
                              16 HU + PL + Serbian + UA @ 3.646230
                              17 LIT + RO + Serbian + UA @ 3.666528
                              18 LIT + PL + Serbian + Serbian @ 3.677135
                              19 Belorussian + PL + Tuscan + UA @ 3.686220
                              20 HU + LIT + Serbian + UA @ 3.693974

                              Eurogenes K13:
                              Using 1 population approximation:
                              1 Croatian @ 4.043084
                              2 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.523828
                              3 Ukrainian @ 6.229197
                              4 South_Polish @ 6.530441
                              5 Moldavian @ 7.250468
                              6 Polish @ 9.952879
                              7 Hungarian @ 10.090275
                              8 Southwest_Russian @ 10.164089
                              9 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 10.533680
                              10 Russian_Smolensk @ 11.962487
                              11 Estonian_Polish @ 12.586098
                              12 Belorussian @ 13.403899
                              13 East_German @ 13.576499
                              14 Serbian @ 14.427799
                              15 Austrian @ 14.637473
                              16 Kargopol_Russian @ 15.162560
                              17 Erzya @ 17.279808
                              18 Southwest_Finnish @ 18.062183
                              19 Estonian @ 18.075253
                              20 Lithuanian @ 18.151476

                              Using 2 populations approximation:
                              1 50% Moldavian +50% Ukrainian @ 2.467287


                              Using 3 populations approximation:
                              1 50% Croatian +25% Croatian +25% Southwest_Russian @ 2.076474


                              Using 4 populations approximation:
                              1 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian @ 1.806712
                              2 Bulgarian + Polish + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 1.931744
                              3 Bulgarian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.014907
                              4 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lithuanian + South_Polish @ 2.045704
                              5 Croatian + Croatian + Croatian + Southwest_Russian @ 2.076474
                              6 Bulgarian + Russian_Smolensk + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.097588
                              7 Croatian + Lithuanian + Romanian + Ukrainian @ 2.110028
                              8 Croatian + Croatian + Croatian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.118343
                              9 Bulgarian + Lithuanian + Moldavian + Polish @ 2.121009
                              10 Lithuanian + Moldavian + Romanian + Ukrainian @ 2.124832
                              11 Romanian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.131657
                              12 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.133527
                              13 Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.173958
                              14 Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + South_Polish + Ukrainian @ 2.185484
                              15 Bulgarian + Russian_Smolensk + South_Polish + Ukrainian @ 2.187053
                              16 Bulgarian + South_Polish + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.187255
                              17 Bulgarian + Polish + Ukrainian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.188543
                              18 Bulgarian + Lithuanian + Moldavian + Ukrainian @ 2.205579
                              19 Croatian + Croatian + Estonian_Polish + Moldavian @ 2.263096
                              20 Bulgarian + Croatian + Lithuanian + Polish @ 2.267665

                              I would trust K13 over the Jtest. The Bulgarian component might explain Near Eastern ancestry. Bulgarians show a fair amount of Near Eastern lines given their closeness to West Asia. Don't know about Tuscan lines. Might just be an Italian ancestor. Croatia borders on northeastern Italy but it is some distance from Tuscany. Hungary does not rank high on K13 and most Hungarians are of Slavic rather than Asian ancestry. Don't see any Jewish lines. It is possible that a sibling of your direct line married someone who was Jewish.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                                I would trust K13 over the Jtest. The Bulgarian component might explain Near Eastern ancestry. Bulgarians show a fair amount of Near Eastern lines given their closeness to West Asia. Don't know about Tuscan lines. Might just be an Italian ancestor. Croatia borders on northeastern Italy but it is some distance from Tuscany. Hungary does not rank high on K13 and most Hungarians are of Slavic rather than Asian ancestry. Don't see any Jewish lines. It is possible that a sibling of your direct line married someone who was Jewish.
                                The Polish Lithuanian Empire included the western Ukraine. Croatia was once part of the Roman Empire.
                                Last edited by josh w.; 5 July 2016, 12:11 PM.

                                Comment

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