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    Hi all. I have a question concerning genetic genealogy. I purchased Family Finder, and later transferred the results to Gedmatch. On FTDNA myOrigins I get no Jewish diaspora, only 91% European (mixed) and 9% Asia Minor. On Jtest I get 4.5% Ashkenazi, 7.5% East Med, 5.6% West Asian (the rest is an European mix). Now, in my family there was a story that one of the grandmothers was a Jewish convert. Do these result point that the story is not true? Thanks!

  • #2
    I can't edit the post above. What I meant was that she converted from Judaism (or her parents did).

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    • #3
      Originally posted by zilch View Post
      I can't edit the post above. What I meant was that she converted from Judaism (or her parents did).
      Edits are disabled after 15 minutes, if I recall correctly.

      Jack

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      • #4
        Originally posted by zilch View Post
        Hi all. I have a question concerning genetic genealogy. I purchased Family Finder, and later transferred the results to Gedmatch. On FTDNA myOrigins I get no Jewish diaspora, only 91% European (mixed) and 9% Asia Minor. On Jtest I get 4.5% Ashkenazi, 7.5% East Med, 5.6% West Asian (the rest is an European mix). Now, in my family there was a story that one of the grandmothers was a Jewish convert. Do these result point that the story is not true? Thanks!
        I'm guessing that your 4.5% Ashkenazi came from the Eurogenes Jtest tool at GEDmatch. If that's the case, ignore it. it doesn't prove that you have Jewish ancestry.

        The blogger who developed the Jtest, who goes by the name Davidski, has posted that any Ashkenazi percentage under 25% should not be taken as indicative of Ashkenazi ancestry. Most people with non-Jewish European ancestry get 3-5% Ashkenazi in Jtest results and Sicilians/southern Italians get 5-10%.

        In my opinion, given how misleading Jtest is, GEDmatch would do everyone a service by removing it from their website.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
          In my opinion, given how misleading Jtest is, GEDmatch would do everyone a service by removing it from their website.
          I disagree, because in hypothesis testing you can prove and you can disprove (with high probability). My question is of the latter type: can I disprove that my great grandmother was Jewish, based on the test results?
          Last edited by zilch; 2 July 2016, 04:06 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by zilch View Post
            I disagree, because in hypothesis testing you can prove and you can disprove (with high probability). My question is of the latter type: can I disprove that my great grandmother was Jewish, based on the test results?
            If you got 4.5% Ashkenazi using Jtest, I would say that it tends to disprove that your great-grandmother was Jewish or at best that she had a a very small, distant amount of Jewish ancestry. I base that on what Davidski has posted about Jtest (only 25% or more indicates Jewish ancestry), along with the lack of Jewish Diaspora in your myOrigins results.

            Ashkenazi ancestry is very easy to pick out in ethnic/geographic admixture analysis. The fact that you don't get any good indication of it in two different tools tells me that there's probably not any Jewish ancestry to detect.

            My point about not having Jtest as a tool on GEDmatch is that it's so misleading for many people. At the very least, there should be some kind of disclaimer that only 25% or more Ashkenazi in that test is a good indication of Ashkenazi ancestry.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by zilch View Post
              Hi all. I have a question concerning genetic genealogy. I purchased Family Finder, and later transferred the results to Gedmatch. On FTDNA myOrigins I get no Jewish diaspora, only 91% European (mixed) and 9% Asia Minor. On Jtest I get 4.5% Ashkenazi, 7.5% East Med, 5.6% West Asian (the rest is an European mix). Now, in my family there was a story that one of the grandmothers was a Jewish convert. Do these result point that the story is not true? Thanks!
              Any chance of distant Sephardic ancestry. Sephardics, depending on extent of Sephardic ancestry, show some Asia Minor at MO. Have you tried Gedmatch Eurogenes. Check the Spreadsheet. Agree with MMaddi that it does not look like Ashkenazi. Non Jewish Near Eastern cannot be ruled out.
              Last edited by josh w.; 2 July 2016, 06:50 PM.

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              • #8
                Thanks. Well, I'm assuming that the spreadsheet describes statistical data about populations (the rows seem to sum up to approximately 100%) and the Eurogenes calculator, together with oracles, compute a sort of greatest likelihood of that my sample belongs to a given population. So, there are no Jewish hits apart from:

                Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
                (18) 89.2% Ukrainian (primary) + 10.6% Italian_Jewish (secondary) 2.30 (distance)


                This was in the oracle of Eurogenes K13.

                My knowledge about genetics is *very* limited, but doesn't it seem that these results disprove the theory of Jewish (Sephardi or Ashkenazi) ancestors?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by zilch View Post
                  Thanks. Well, I'm assuming that the spreadsheet describes statistical data about populations (the rows seem to sum up to approximately 100%) and the Eurogenes calculator, together with oracles, compute a sort of greatest likelihood of that my sample belongs to a given population. So, there are no Jewish hits apart from:

                  Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
                  (18) 89.2% Ukrainian (primary) + 10.6% Italian_Jewish (secondary) 2.30 (distance)


                  This was in the oracle of Eurogenes K13.

                  My knowledge about genetics is *very* limited, but doesn't it seem that these results disprove the theory of Jewish (Sephardi or Ashkenazi) ancestors?
                  It certainly doesn't prove that you have Jewish ancestry.

                  Granted, DNA test results give you general answers and probabilities, not certainty. But from what you've cited in the GEDmatch oracles and your myOrigins results, both josh w and I agree that Jewish ancestry doesn't seem likely; josh w. is Jewish himself and is regarded as one of the most knowledgeable genetic genealogists in matters of Jewish ancestry.

                  One test of Jewish ancestry, besides admixture tools like myOrigins, is having matches in Family Finder who have only Jewish ancestry. Are you seeing any matches at all who fit that description?

                  Of course, it's your genealogy and ultimately it's you who has to decide what are the chances that family stories about a Jewish ancestor are true. You asked for our opinions and we've given them, but you're free to think we're wrong - and we may be wrong.
                  Last edited by MMaddi; 2 July 2016, 07:53 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                    One test of Jewish ancestry, besides admixture tools like myOrigins, is having matches in Family Finder who have only Jewish ancestry. Are you seeing any matches at all who fit that description?

                    Of course, it's your genealogy and ultimately it's you who has to decide what are the chances that family stories about a Jewish ancestor are true. You asked for our opinions and we've given them, but you're free to think we're wrong - and we may be wrong.
                    I have some matches that seem Jewish, and some labeled as Ashkenazi (mtDNA). Still, I'm assuming that this follows from the fact that my ancestry is central/eastern European.

                    I am fully aware of who I am :-) Indeed, I recently noticed that some people do have this dream of being native American/jewish/etc. However, I'm mostly looking to prove/disprove some familial stories. As I understand, this one seems implausible.

                    Thanks for the help!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by zilch View Post
                      I have some [Family Finder] matches that seem Jewish, [...] Still, I'm assuming that this follows from the fact that my ancestry is central/eastern European.
                      Only if the individual segments you share with them have paintings for North/East European ancestries and the absence of Mediterranean and Middle Eastern elements. If the segments are painted in a "Jewish" way the opposite could be true. Segment paintings can be checked in GEDmatch.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                        It certainly doesn't prove that you have Jewish ancestry.

                        Granted, DNA test results give you general answers and probabilities, not certainty. But from what you've cited in the GEDmatch oracles and your myOrigins results, both josh w and I agree that Jewish ancestry doesn't seem likely; josh w. is Jewish himself and is regarded as one of the most knowledgeable genetic genealogists in matters of Jewish ancestry.

                        One test of Jewish ancestry, besides admixture tools like myOrigins, is having matches in Family Finder who have only Jewish ancestry. Are you seeing any matches at all who fit that description?

                        Of course, it's your genealogy and ultimately it's you who has to decide what are the chances that family stories about a Jewish ancestor are true. You asked for our opinions and we've given them, but you're free to think we're wrong - and we may be wrong.
                        Yes, an 18th ranked possibility does not seem likely. Any closer ranked combinations with Near Eastern lines? I guess Jewish lines cannot be entirely ruled out since Italian Jews are similar to Ashkenazi and Sephardic lines. As Khazaria indicates, do you have any possibly Jewish aDNA matches where the Chromosome Painting at Eurogenes points to East Med origins. Caution, East Med could involve non Jewish lines.
                        Last edited by josh w.; 2 July 2016, 08:41 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Below are some of the types of scenarios I have seen in GEDmatch's paintings for validated segments in my Ashkenazic parents:
                          Polish person matching Ashkenazic person on an Ashkenazic segment
                          Polish person matching Ashkenazic person on a Slavic segment
                          Rusyn person matching Ashkenazic person on an Ashkenazic segment
                          Rusyn person matching Ashkenazic person on a Slavic segment
                          Ukrainian person matching Ashkenazic person on an Ashkenazic segment
                          Russian person matching Ashkenazic person on a Slavic segment
                          Russian person matching Ashkenazic person on a Sephardic segment
                          Austrian person matching Ashkenazic person on a Sephardic segment
                          German person matching Ashkenazic person on an Ashkenazic segment
                          Lithuanian person matching Ashkenazic person on an Ashkenazic segment
                          Macedonian person matching Ashkenazic person on a Slavic segment

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                          • #14
                            I'm at loss, my knowledge is too limited... I did not explore chromosome painting yet. Could you point me to what I should click on to get the result? I do get these pretty paintings, but I don't know how to interpret them.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by zilch View Post
                              I'm at loss, my knowledge is too limited... I did not explore chromosome painting yet. Could you point me to what I should click on to get the result? I do get these pretty paintings, but I don't know how to interpret them.
                              khazaria is suggesting that, using the painted chromosome images, you map out your shared segments with matches whom you think have Jewish ancestry. For instance, let's say you share a segment on chromosome 5, starting at 25,000,000 and ending at 40,000,000, with someone you think has Jewish ancestry. Run the chromosome painting at GEDmatch and see what that area of chromosome 5 is painted as. Is that area of chromosome 5 painted as (non-Jewish) eastern European or is it painted as some sort of Mediterranean or West Asian? That may give you a clue as to whether the common ancestor for that segment was more likely non-Jewish eastern European or possibly Jewish. Try the different tools - Eurogenes, MDLP and Dodecad - so you get more than one opinion. I've heard that MDLP is particularly sensitive in analyzing eastern European ancestry, but all three are good tools.
                              Last edited by MMaddi; 2 July 2016, 09:24 PM.

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