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Ashkenzi Jewish with 4% Scandinavian

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  • Ashkenzi Jewish with 4% Scandinavian

    I'm a full AJ as far as I know, with ancestry from Germany and Poland. On 23andme on speculative I got 0.3% Scandinavian and now on FTDNA I get 4% Scandinavian. How common/uncommon this is among AJs? And does 4% qualify as representing recent (within the last 500 years) Scandinavian ancestry?

    P.S I share with at least one Scandinavian with the surname of Jensen, though he might have AJ ancestry.

  • #2
    Originally posted by John Doe View Post
    I'm a full AJ as far as I know, with ancestry from Germany and Poland. On 23andme on speculative I got 0.3% Scandinavian and now on FTDNA I get 4% Scandinavian. How common/uncommon this is among AJs? And does 4% qualify as representing recent (within the last 500 years) Scandinavian ancestry?

    P.S I share with at least one Scandinavian with the surname of Jensen, though he might have AJ ancestry.
    I don't know the answers to your questions. I expect the percentage with some Scandinavian is not very high. My kids are at least partially Scandinavian on their maternal side. My daughter jokingly classifies herself as a Nordic Litvak and we have noted others with a similar background.. Have you been Mtdna tested. I know there are a couple of Mtdna J subclades shared by AJs and FinnoScandians. The presumption being that the lines entered the Jewish population from local 'host' countries.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by josh w. View Post
      I don't know the answers to your questions. I expect the percentage with some Scandinavian is not very high. My kids are at least partially Scandinavian on their maternal side. My daughter jokingly classifies herself as a Nordic Litvak and we have noted others with a similar background.. Have you been Mtdna tested. I know there are a couple of Mtdna J subclades shared by AJs and FinnoScandians. The presumption being that the lines entered the Jewish population from local 'host' countries.
      There were many Scandinavians in both Germany and Poland, especially in the north. Intermarriage was clearly possible.
      Of course, Jews married Christians in Scandinavia, e.g. Niels Bohr's family and Dorrit Moussaieff, the first lady of Iceland. My youngest daughter's maternal line is from a rural fjord in western Norway. The town can only be reached by ferry. I recently discovered two separate FF Ashkenazi matches from the same fjord.
      Last edited by josh w.; 13 April 2015, 06:34 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by josh w. View Post
        There were many Scandinavians in both Germany and Poland, especially in the north. Intermarriage was clearly possible.
        Of course, Jews married Christians in Scandinavia, e.g. Niels Bohr's family and Dorrit Moussaieff, the first lady of Iceland. My youngest daughter's maternal line is from a rural fjord in western Norway. The town can only be reached by ferry. I recently discovered two separate FF Ashkenazi matches from the same fjord.
        Thanks. As I literally have no idea where my father's ancestors came from in Germany and Poland, it's possible they were in the north of those countries. As for my mother's family, they almost all came either fromm central or southeast Poland.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by John Doe View Post
          Thanks. As I literally have no idea where my father's ancestors came from in Germany and Poland, it's possible they were in the north of those countries. As for my mother's family, they almost all came either fromm central or southeast Poland.
          I hope it is clear that your situation is not that common but it is hardly unique. One of my Norwegian AJ matches is from Galicia. For parity's sake the other match was a Litvak.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by josh w. View Post
            I hope it is clear that your situation is not that common but it is hardly unique. One of my Norwegian AJ matches is from Galicia. For parity's sake the other match was a Litvak.
            Thanks, I hope I'll one day be able to confirm this Scandinavian ancestry, and perhaps trace it to a specific generation, though I can assume 4% equates to a great great grandparent or a 3x great grandparent.

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            • #7
              I just looked at My Origins again, turns out that, when viewing my most distant paternal ancestors option, I saw 2 popups in peculiar places, besides the understood popups en masse in Germany and Poland, 1 was in northern Denmark and another in southern Norway, just south of Oslo. It seems like this Scandinavian ancestry is from my paternal side, probably from around a 150-200 years ago.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by John Doe View Post
                I just looked at My Origins again, turns out that, when viewing my most distant paternal ancestors option, I saw 2 popups in peculiar places, besides the understood popups en masse in Germany and Poland, 1 was in northern Denmark and another in southern Norway, just south of Oslo. It seems like this Scandinavian ancestry is from my paternal side, probably from around a 150-200 years ago.
                The Danish Empire once controlled northern Germany and Pomerania in Poland but that was more than 200 years ago. Of course, there could have been individual movement within Scandinavia, Germany and Poland.

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                • #9
                  My maternal grandmother's mother and father came to the USA from Sweden. My 23andme results came back showing 0.3% Ashkenazi. On my paternal side, my father came to the USA from Ireland. I've assumed that the Ashkenazi link originates on my Mother's side. The Ashkenazi link might also explain a medical condition I was diagnosed with several years which occurs primarily in Ashkenazi men and some from the "Mediterranean." ftdna results suggest a 20% Scandinavian make-up; Ancestry estimates 24% Scandinavian and 23andme 9.4%.
                  Last edited by Bill Masterson; 1 June 2015, 08:56 AM. Reason: Additional material added.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill Masterson View Post
                    My maternal grandmother's mother and father came to the USA from Sweden. My 23andme results came back showing 0.3% Ashkenazi. On my paternal side, my father came to the USA from Ireland. I've assumed that the Ashkenazi link originates on my Mother's side. The Ashkenazi link might also explain a medical condition I was diagnosed with several years which occurs primarily in Ashkenazi men and some from the "Mediterranean." ftdna results suggest a 20% Scandinavian make-up; Ancestry estimates 24% Scandinavian and 23andme 9.4%.
                    Unless Gedmatch shows some Ashkenazi, I would not make much of 0.3%.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                      Unless Gedmatch shows some Ashkenazi, I would not make much of 0.3%.
                      Thank you for the response.

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                      • #12
                        Can't take Scandinavian prediction literally

                        I previously mentioned to this forum how FTDNA thinks I have 4% of Scandinavian genetics... the same situation "John Doe" encountered.

                        FTDNA thinks my mother has double that: 8% Scandinavian.

                        Neither result conforms to the known ethnic/cultural/geographical circumstances of my mother's Ashkenazic and Sephardic ancestors.

                        Eurogenes Jtest's oracle's mixed mode suggests "South_&_Central_Swedish" as a minority element it thinks is possible for me, but that's 20th out of its 20 listed guesses, so the farthest fit, and neither this nor any other Scandinavian ethnicity or region appears in my mother's guesses.

                        A tiny fraction being real is conceivable though. So I looked through my matches with a fine-toothed comb.

                        My mother and I match a woman with Swedish first and last names and an email address based in Sweden. FTDNA's MyOrigins claims she's 100% European and 0% Ashkenazi. (However sometimes a zero score in MyOrigins is overlooking something that exists in a tiny fraction. I gave such an example before that involved a Bavarian and an Austrian who both scored 0% Ashkenazi in MyOrigins but further investigation showed they have minute Ashkenazic ancestry from the 1700s.) She matches my mom on a total of 37.39 cM with the longest block 20.04 cM so that's definitely IBD. She matches me for a total of 37.84 cM and the longest block is 11.82 cM. There are 16 pages worth of people in common between she and my mom, including other Ashkenazim, (10 people per page) and in my experience this number of pages in common given the current size of the database suggests our match has a tiny amount of Ashkenazic ancestry herself.

                        My mother and I match a woman from central Sweden. 36.15 total and 15.86 longest block with my mom, 38.74 total and 15.78 longest block with me. She and my mom have 44 pages of matches in common. With well over 400 people in common it should be presumed that this Swede is partly Ashkenazic.

                        My mother matches a woman with Swedish first and last names and a Swedish email address, 33.81 total and 10.17 longest. They have 70 pages of matches in common. Again this Swede must be partly Ashkenazic.

                        My mother and I match somebody who's paternally English and Scottish, and maternally Swedish going back centuries with ancestors with typical Swedish names and patronymics. There are 15 pages of matches in common between me and this person. Longest block shared with me is 9.15 and total shared is 22.01. I assume this person squeaks by as part-Ashkenazic as 15 pages is in the border area of what I see in our results.

                        A man from Sweden with a three-part all-Swedish name plus Swedish ancestral surnames shares only one person in common with me and that person is the mixed Brit-Swede in the previous paragraph. This man doesn't match my mom, and doesn't triangulate on the same block with me and the Brit-Swede. Longest block 8.05 cM and total shared 21.34. This match doesn't look real to me.

                        A woman with a Swedish surname whose ancestors also had Scandinavian surnames and patronymics and one German surname, and whose most distant paternal and maternal line ancestors lived in Sweden, matches 45 pages of people in common with me, and also matches my mom. Longest block 15.85 and total 35.15 with me, same 15.85 block but total 25.7 with my mom. Notice that my total cM shared with this Swede is much higher than what my mom shares, so my father gave me extra DNA that's also in common with the Swede. I presume this Swede has some Ashkenazic ancestry, perhaps through their German ancestor.

                        A man with Scandinavian first and last names and roots mostly in Denmark and Norway with a long list of Scandinavian surnames and patronymics, but also two German surnames that are also common among Jews, has only 2 pages in common with me (15 matches exactly) including Ashkenazim, but doesn't match my mom. Matching me on 8.24 longest block and 28.95 total. Could be IBS.

                        I don't see a solid case for my having Scandinavian origins here.

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                        • #13
                          the ultimate history book

                          The human genome is the ultimate history book. Any ethnic mix, any trace amount of unexpected DNA type is possible through these DNA tests.

                          The Scandinavian could come from actual Scandinavians living in Denmark, Norway or Sweden. Then again, it could be coming from people in northern Germany whose ancestors might have been Scandinavian. Both Sweden and Denmark once controlled areas of what are now northern Germany.

                          Also, a human being is a human being. Whenever two supposedly different populations are living in the same space, intermingling will occur, whether it be through actual marriage or otherwise. And Jewish/Christian intermarriage did occur in Europe.

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                          • #14
                            On July 9th, FTDNA updated their MyOrigins estimates for my mother. The 8% "Scandinavian" element vanished from her prediction, so it seems it really was spurious like I thought. In its place are 4% Eastern European, 2% Finland & Northern Siberia, and 2 out of the 3 additional percentage points newly added to her existing Ashkenazi score. The 1% Asia Minor estimate is gone but the 2% North African affinity from her Sephardic ancestry remains the same.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by khazaria View Post
                              On July 9th, FTDNA updated their MyOrigins estimates for my mother. The 8% "Scandinavian" element vanished from her prediction, so it seems it really was spurious like I thought. In its place are 4% Eastern European, 2% Finland & Northern Siberia, and 2 out of the 3 additional percentage points newly added to her existing Ashkenazi score. The 1% Asia Minor estimate is gone but the 2% North African affinity from her Sephardic ancestry remains the same.
                              My "My origins" didn't change, still 96% Ashkenazi and 4% Scandinavian, perhaps this means that this is really Scandinavian ancestry I have there. In fact, I suspect it's on chromosome 11, on K15 on Eurogenes divided by chromosomes, I score around 30-40% north Sea on chromosome 11, on all other chromosomes I don't get that much north sea, and the North sea component reaches its highest frequency in southern Norway.

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