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Ashkenzi Jewish with 4% Scandinavian

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  • khazaria
    replied
    MyOrigins 3.0
    As of September 22, 2020
    Me: 98% Ashkenazi Jewish, less than 2% West Slavic
    My dad: 99% Ashkenazi Jewish, less than 1% Baltic
    My mom: 99% Ashkenazi Jewish, less than 1% Central Europe, less than 1% Sephardic Jewish

    So the Polish elements are identified differently for each of us this time. Their map does show that they believe western Poland is part of their Central Europe cluster's coverage.
    As expected, we did not score anything in their East Slavic, Magyar, and Scandinavian categories.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    The thread starter's false Scandinavian score also disappeared. He wrote to Anthrogenica today that his new estimates are 99% Ashkenazi and less than 2% West and Central Europe.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    MyOrigins 2.0 released on April 4, 2017 corrected the problem with false Scandinavian results that had appeared for me and my parents. It is now classified correctly as East Europe.

    New estimates are:

    me: 97% Ashkenazi Jewish, less than 2% East Europe, less than 2% Central Asia (noise, this element isn't found in either of my parents), 0% Sephardi Jewish (actually I have a little over 1%), 0% Scandinavian

    mom: 93% Ashkenazi Jewish, 5% East Europe, less than 2% Sephardi Jewish, 0% Scandinavian, 0% Central Asia

    dad: 95% Ashkenazi Jewish, 4% East Europe, less than 2% West Middle East (Levant region), 0% Sephardi Jewish (actually he has nearly 1%), 0% Scandinavian, 0% Central Asia

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    As this earlier post noted, Poles could have migrated to Sweden. Dna also noted migration from the north (and other areas) to Galicia
    Since the original question dealt with MO rather than FF matches, ancient history cannot be ruled out. The Scandinavian Vandals were in southern Poland before they invaded Rome. Again, my point is that with low Scandinavian percentages there is more than one possibility even if some are more likely.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    There are other possibilities. Scandinavians once controlled parts of northern Poland. Also there has been two way sea trade between Sweden and northern Poland.
    As this earlier post noted, Poles could have migrated to Sweden. Dna also noted migration from the north (and other areas) to Galicia
    Last edited by josh w.; 4 May 2016, 11:49 AM.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    My point was that there are many possibilities, e.g. two way trade migration from Poland to Sweden. The Gothic tribes began near the Polish German border and later spread all over Scandinavia. This view is not incompatible with historical south to north migration within Poland.
    I meant that a minority of migrants could have spread from north to south Poland.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by khazaria View Post
    As we've previously discussed, some Ashkenazim and some Poles have scored minority percentages of "Scandinavian" DNA in MyOrigins even though they have no recent identical-by-descent sharing with full Scandinavians (but do with each other). New data has come to light that confirms Lawrence Mayka's explanation that I had quoted.

    A paper by G. Athanasiadis, J. Cheng, et al. called "Nationwide genomic study in Denmark reveals remarkable population homogeneity" to be presented at a meeting hosted by the European Society of Human Genetics in 2016 contains this sentence in its abstract: "Notwithstanding Denmark’s homogeneity, we observed a clear signal of Polish admixture in the East of the country, coinciding with historical Polish settlements in the region before the Middle Ages."

    MyOrigins' reference population for "Scandinavian" includes 13 Danes, in addition to Swedish and Norwegian samples.

    Ashkenazim aren't part-Danish or part-Swedish, but are part-Polish.
    My point was that there are many possibilities, e.g. two way trade migration from Poland to Sweden. The Gothic tribes began near the Polish German border and later spread all over Scandinavia. This view is not incompatible with historical south to north migration within Poland.
    Last edited by josh w.; 4 May 2016, 11:02 AM.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    As we've previously discussed, some Ashkenazim and some Poles have scored minority percentages of "Scandinavian" DNA in MyOrigins even though they have no recent identical-by-descent sharing with full Scandinavians (but do with each other). New data has come to light that confirms Lawrence Mayka's explanation that I had quoted.

    A paper by G. Athanasiadis, J. Cheng, et al. called "Nationwide genomic study in Denmark reveals remarkable population homogeneity" to be presented at a meeting hosted by the European Society of Human Genetics in 2016 contains this sentence in its abstract: "Notwithstanding Denmark’s homogeneity, we observed a clear signal of Polish admixture in the East of the country, coinciding with historical Polish settlements in the region before the Middle Ages."

    MyOrigins' reference population for "Scandinavian" includes 13 Danes, in addition to Swedish and Norwegian samples.

    Ashkenazim aren't part-Danish or part-Swedish, but are part-Polish.

    Leave a comment:


  • dna
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    I should have been more explicit. People in northern Poland could have migrated further south.
    That is always a possibility for some families. However, for centuries, the prevailing migration pattern within Poland was to northern Poland (likely due to difficult conditions for agriculture there).

    And similarly(?), due to very favourable conditions for agriculture in many areas of southern-eastern Poland (current borders) that region was a net source of migrants over many centuries.

    W. (Mr.)
    Last edited by dna; 22 July 2015, 12:04 PM.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    I should have been more explicit. People in northern Poland could have migrated further south.
    During the Deluge, the Swedish army went as far south as Krakow and Lublin. I am not suggesting that this is the explanation, merely that there is more than one possibility.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by khazaria View Post
    Josh, in my last message I wasn't talking about northern Poland, but instead farming villages in the southern half of the southeastern-most region of Poland. Poles and Rusyns.

    And my two closest Polish matches' lists on Gedmatch include only small numbers of people with Scandinavian last names, none matching them that closely and some appear to be IBS.
    I should have been more explicit. People in northern Poland could have migrated further south.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    Josh, in my last message I wasn't talking about northern Poland, but instead farming villages in the southern half of the southeastern-most region of Poland. Poles and Rusyns.

    And my two closest Polish matches' lists on Gedmatch include only small numbers of people with Scandinavian last names, none matching them that closely and some appear to be IBS.

    Leave a comment:


  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by khazaria View Post
    MyOrigins estimates have also changed for me following my kit's re-run.

    As of Dec. 30, 2014: 92% Ashkenazi, 4% Scandinavian, 4% Western/Central European (French and German reference samples)
    As of July 20, 2015: 93% Ashkenazi, 7% Scandinavian

    This should say "East Europe" instead of "Scandinavian" since my father bequeathed me some Southeast Polish linked to Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic families from Podkarpackie villages, even if my mother didn't share her own apparently-Polish portion with me, but it doesn't really matter. My father's DNA is currently being processed in the lab. In a few weeks I'll learn what MyOrigins estimates for my father and study his matches in comparison to mine taking into consideration phasing, block lengths, triangulation, geographic clustering, etc.

    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode (for me): 93.2% Ashkenazi (AJ), 6.8% Polish (PL) on line 8
    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode: 93.2% Ashkenazi (AJ), 6.8% Scottish on line 5
    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode: 93.8% Ashkenazi (AJ), 6.2% South and Central Swedish on line 20
    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode: 92.9% Ashkenazi (AJ), 7.1% West and Central German on line 17
    Eurogenes EUtest Oracle Mixed Mode: 94.5% Ashkenazi (AJ), 5.5% Polish (PL) on line 5
    Eurogenes K13 Oracle-4 3-Populations: 50% Italian Jewish, 25% Lebanese Druze, 25% South Polish

    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode for my closest "pure" Polish match: 88.3% Polish (PL), 11.7% North Swedish on line 15;
    vs. 82.2% West Russian, 17.8% South and Central Swedish on line 2;
    vs. 81.9% Belorussian, 18.1% Irish on line 1

    Northern European elements are interchangeable with each other to a degree.
    There are other possibilities. Scandinavians once controlled parts of northern Poland. Also there has been two way sea trade between Sweden and northern Poland.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    MyOrigins estimates have also changed for me following my kit's re-run.

    As of Dec. 30, 2014: 92% Ashkenazi, 4% Scandinavian, 4% Western/Central European (French and German reference samples)
    As of July 20, 2015: 93% Ashkenazi, 7% Scandinavian

    This should say "East Europe" instead of "Scandinavian" since my father bequeathed me some Southeast Polish linked to Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic families from Podkarpackie villages, even if my mother didn't share her own apparently-Polish portion with me, but it doesn't really matter. My father's DNA is currently being processed in the lab. In a few weeks I'll learn what MyOrigins estimates for my father and study his matches in comparison to mine taking into consideration phasing, block lengths, triangulation, geographic clustering, etc.

    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode (for me): 93.2% Ashkenazi (AJ), 6.8% Polish (PL) on line 8
    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode: 93.2% Ashkenazi (AJ), 6.8% Scottish on line 5
    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode: 93.8% Ashkenazi (AJ), 6.2% South and Central Swedish on line 20
    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode: 92.9% Ashkenazi (AJ), 7.1% West and Central German on line 17
    Eurogenes EUtest Oracle Mixed Mode: 94.5% Ashkenazi (AJ), 5.5% Polish (PL) on line 5
    Eurogenes K13 Oracle-4 3-Populations: 50% Italian Jewish, 25% Lebanese Druze, 25% South Polish

    Eurogenes Jtest Oracle Mixed Mode for my closest "pure" Polish match: 88.3% Polish (PL), 11.7% North Swedish on line 15;
    vs. 82.2% West Russian, 17.8% South and Central Swedish on line 2;
    vs. 81.9% Belorussian, 18.1% Irish on line 1

    Northern European elements are interchangeable with each other to a degree.

    "The problem in this is that research studies typically take samples from well-traveled urban areas, neglecting rural and mountainous areas. These latter typically harbor remnants of more ancient demographic strata. ... Thus, a rural southern Pole might see 10% Scandinavian or British Isles on his MyOrigins--not because his ancestors came from those regions, but rather because (some of) the DNA in those regions came from southern Poland!" - Lawrence Mayka writing at http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...04&postcount=1

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  • khazaria
    replied
    We're discussing a bunch of things at once.

    Finns were usually endogamous. Most Finns have distinctive genetics compared to speakers of Germanic languages in Scandinavia, as well as from Russians and even from Saami. But some Finns did mix with Swedes especially in the cities.

    Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians do have much in common but of course there's variation. Norwegians sometimes have Saami admixture and this even had an impact on some of their appearance including the shape of their nose.

    I think the continuation of the Asia Minor topic properly belongs in a different thread but will reply to Mr. W about it here this time.
    The only reference population for Asia Minor in FTDNA is Armenian, but it is known that Armenians and Anatolian Turks share much DNA in common.
    I suppose there are a small number of Poles who don't know they had an Armenian ancestor until a DNA test matches them IBD with Armenians. If in the future you learn about examples of that kind of discovery, open a new thread to discuss them.

    Armando, David made that comment I quoted to one of his public blogs, http://bga101.blogspot.com/2013/03/e...-gedmatch.html and his caveats about ignoring very small percentages in Jtest and Eurogenes K36 have also been helpful to remember such as what he wrote at http://bga101.blogspot.com/2012/09/e...est-files.html We can't successfully dissuade everybody who has wishful thinking or self-hatred. Some people are so predetermined they are Amerindian or Ashkenazi or Viking or whatever that they will latch onto any little scrap of noise that they think confirms their stories even when it doesn't.

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