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Ashkenzi Jewish with 4% Scandinavian

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  • Armando
    replied
    Originally posted by khazaria View Post
    The per-chromosome numerical percentage tables are known to be prone to noise. As David Wesolowski said, "Per chromosome is more noisy and uncertain because the algorithm has fewer markers to work with."
    I just read this. Is this something that he has posted online? It would be nice to have a list of caveats of the Gedmatch calculators and this one is very important since so many people are using the per chromosome test to "prove" certain ancestries.

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  • dna
    replied
    What is Asia Minor according to Family Tree DNA ?

    The heat map entitled Asia Minor clearly includes Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey.

    It is my understanding that both Azerbaijan and Turkey are populated by Turkic peoples. However, neither Armenians nor Georgians (Kartvelian people) are Turkic people.

    There was a substantial influx of Armenians into Poland, then into the territory of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, starting possibly as early as after 1080 AD.

    There were some Georgians joining Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth military, however their more substantial influx into Central Europe started only in the 19th century when Russia extended from Central Europe to Caucasia (the influx continued later).

    I can see how those whose ancestors lived in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth can have Armenian admixture, and not be aware of it. Certainly most people would not think of Jerzy Kawalerowicz, Krzysztof Penderecki or Zbigniew Herbert having some Armenian ancestry.

    Why Armenians and Georgians are lumped together?

    Why FTDNA lumped Armenians and Georgians together with their Turkic neighbours?

    How realistic can be an Asia Minor component as it is supposed to cover three distinct populations?

    Scandinavians at FTDNA do not include Finns, but is it really that Danes, Norwegians and Swedes are all the same ?

    W. (Mr.)
    Last edited by dna; 17 July 2015, 07:39 PM.

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  • dna
    replied
    Originally posted by khazaria View Post
    I didn't request any re-run. She was part of the FF batch that came in at the start of June where we had some missing matches.

    A 4th run was performed today (July 17) for my mom and the ethnic results remain the same as in the 3rd run.
    Thank you!

    I asked since this week an individual from my family had received results with 3% of Asia Minor. Asia Minor is not supported by the fairly complete paper trail, does not show in a sibling and cousins (various percentages of Western/Central/Eastern Europe), and nobody among 200 matches stands out.

    I will e-mail the match (43 cM, Longest Block 14 cM, typical British first and family name) that shows 6% Asia Minor in My Origins... However, based on the paper trail, the relationship is probably more distant than the 3rd-5th cousin.

    W. (Mr.)

    P.S.
    I have other (unrelated) lines in my family tree with stories of some ancestor who travelled as a merchant and brought back a wife from somewhere far far away. But nothing had come up for them

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  • khazaria
    replied
    Originally posted by dna View Post
    Did you request a re-run for your mother kit or, as I understand the above post, there were two re-reruns that FTDNA did by themselves?
    I didn't request any re-run. She was part of the FF batch that came in at the start of June where we had some missing matches.

    A 4th run was performed today (July 17) for my mom and the ethnic results remain the same as in the 3rd run.

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  • dna
    replied
    @khazaria - trying to confirm

    Did you request a re-run for your mother kit or, as I understand the above post, there were two re-reruns that FTDNA did by themselves?

    Thank you - W. (Mr.)

    Leave a comment:


  • khazaria
    replied
    Apparently because of the problems with some kits discussed in http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...t=38019&page=6, not because of the addition of any new reference populations or because of anything wrong with her particular kit this month, on July 16th my mom's MyOrigins estimates were run a third time. The spurious Scandinavian element is still gone and the spurious Finnish element disappeared.

    As of June 1, 2015: 89% Ashkenazi, 2% North African, 8% Scandinavian, 1% Asia Minor
    As of July 9, 2015: 92% Ashkenazi, 2% North African, 4% East Europe, 2% Finland
    As of July 16, 2015: 90% Ashkenazi, 2% North African, 8% East Europe

    I believe the latest estimates are the most accurate as her ancestry is known to consist of:
    1. Predominantly Ashkenazic lineages with Yiddish names, language, and culture and all her Old World ancestors going back multiple generations are listed in the Jewish vital record books;
    2. One Sephardic family name from a shtetl with Sephardic settlers and a region that had Sephardim in other towns too;
    3. She had a grandfather who claimed to be partially Polish not only linguistically.

    Now let's see whether the DNA matching evidence fits:
    1. Yes. The vast majority of her DNA matches do have Ashkenazic ancestry.
    2. Yes. She possesses DNA blocks that form IBD-quality phased triangulating groups simultaneously including Ashkenazim and Mexican Catholics. Many of those Mexicans have now identified specific Sephardic ancestors from Spain they descend from using paper trail evidence. One of my mom's Mexican matches shares 6 pages worth of matches in common with her. Another of her Mexican matches shares just 5 pages in common. She shares a 7.81 cM block and 2 pages in common with a Portuguese Catholic with roots in the Azores where some Sephardim had settled. Her matches with Ashkenazic ancestry share many more pages ICW than these people do. "North African" and "Ashkenazi" are known to be among the current stand-in designations for Sephardic ancestry in FTDNA in the absence of any Sephardic reference population.
    3. Yes or maybe. She shares a 8.52 cM block and 20.71 total cMs with a man with Christian Polish roots from Lublin Voivodeship in SE Poland with whom they share only 9 pages in common. She shares a 17.92 cM block and 40.03 total with a proposed "3rd-5th cousin" estimated to be 0% Ashkenazi with known Christian Polish roots with whom they share only 7 pages in common. She shares a 7.78 cM block and 26.39 total with a woman with a Polish surname with whom they share only 3 pages in common. She shares a 9.54 cM block and 26.84 total with an ethnic Ukrainian with whom they share only 3 pages in common. EUtest's oracle in mixed mode thinks my mom has the potential to be 1.6% Polish. My mom's South Baltic affinity is 7.19% in EUtest (6.51% in Jtest) and her East Euro affinity is 4.80% in EUtest (3.16% in Jtest).

    Some reasons I believe Scandinavian, Finnish, and Asia Minor were false elements and that it's correct they vanished:
    No fully Finnish matches.
    No Armenian matches.
    No non-Jewish Turkish matches.
    No fully German matches.
    Some of her Swedish matches appear to have distant Ashkenazic ancestry based on the analysis I posted on June 21st.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    Originally posted by NCroots View Post
    Is it possible the Scandinavian result is really German?
    Yes it is possible. I have seen some Ashkenazim with signs of distant German admixture. In Eurogenes K13's oracle-4 this shows up as "West_German" or "North_German" and is sometimes interchangeable with "South_Dutch", "North_Swedish", "Danish", or "Orcadian". This really jumps out when I see it on the screen because most of the time Ashkenazim's affinities in this oracle are 4-part combinations of all Mediterranean region/climate peoples like "Samaritan", "Lebanese_Christian", "Spanish_Galicia", "Italian_Jewish", "Tuscan", "Bulgarian", and the like.

    Also remember that when John looked through his Family Finder matches he told us he found one person who may be Scandinavian, and we don't know that that person isn't partly Ashkenazi.

    Ashkenazim have a much longer history in the German lands than in Scandinavia. Per Jacqueline Shields writing for the Jewish Virtual Library, "Denmark was the first of the Scandinavian countries where Jews were permitted to settle. Jews were first invited by King Christian IV, who sent a message on November 22, 1622". The 1620s to the present day is all within the genealogical timeframe where autosomal DNA can find truly Scandinavian IBD matches if there are any.

    I would like to clarify something for people new to my writings on this forum. This morning, when I wrote a 25% or higher Ashkenazi score equals having 4 grandparents who were all predominantly Ashkenazic, I meant in Jtest, which has weird scaling, not in FTDNA where 25% really means 25%.

    David Wesolowski is Eurogenes's creator.
    Last edited by khazaria; 10 July 2015, 05:06 PM.

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  • NCroots
    replied
    Is it possible the Scandinavian result is really German? I have significant German ancestry, yet show no German (Central European) at all on my FTDNA results; I do show 36% Scandinavian. I believe myOrigins is interpreting my German as Scandinavian. Perhaps it's possible that 4% Scandinavian could be North German? That would make sense in a person of Ashkenazi heritage.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    Originally posted by John Doe View Post
    My "My origins" didn't change, still 96% Ashkenazi and 4% Scandinavian, perhaps this means that this is really Scandinavian ancestry I have there.
    I'm not sure. I have my doubts.

    Out of nearly 400 kits I have examined belonging to people with 4 Ashkenazi grandparents (Ashkenazi score ~25% or higher), only very few show a proposed "Norwegian" and/or "North_Swedish" affinity in any part of Eurogenes K13's oracle-4.

    There are some Ashkenazim who have very small amounts of Scandinavian predicted for them by 23andMe.

    The per-chromosome numerical percentage tables are known to be prone to noise. As David Wesolowski said, "Per chromosome is more noisy and uncertain because the algorithm has fewer markers to work with."

    I checked my own MyOrigins screen twice tonight and it still guesses that I have 4% Scandinavian, but because it vanished from my mother's results I suspect that when/if it reconsiders my genetic profile it may remove it.

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  • John Doe
    replied
    Originally posted by khazaria View Post
    On July 9th, FTDNA updated their MyOrigins estimates for my mother. The 8% "Scandinavian" element vanished from her prediction, so it seems it really was spurious like I thought. In its place are 4% Eastern European, 2% Finland & Northern Siberia, and 2 out of the 3 additional percentage points newly added to her existing Ashkenazi score. The 1% Asia Minor estimate is gone but the 2% North African affinity from her Sephardic ancestry remains the same.
    My "My origins" didn't change, still 96% Ashkenazi and 4% Scandinavian, perhaps this means that this is really Scandinavian ancestry I have there. In fact, I suspect it's on chromosome 11, on K15 on Eurogenes divided by chromosomes, I score around 30-40% north Sea on chromosome 11, on all other chromosomes I don't get that much north sea, and the North sea component reaches its highest frequency in southern Norway.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    On July 9th, FTDNA updated their MyOrigins estimates for my mother. The 8% "Scandinavian" element vanished from her prediction, so it seems it really was spurious like I thought. In its place are 4% Eastern European, 2% Finland & Northern Siberia, and 2 out of the 3 additional percentage points newly added to her existing Ashkenazi score. The 1% Asia Minor estimate is gone but the 2% North African affinity from her Sephardic ancestry remains the same.

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  • mixedkid
    replied
    the ultimate history book

    The human genome is the ultimate history book. Any ethnic mix, any trace amount of unexpected DNA type is possible through these DNA tests.

    The Scandinavian could come from actual Scandinavians living in Denmark, Norway or Sweden. Then again, it could be coming from people in northern Germany whose ancestors might have been Scandinavian. Both Sweden and Denmark once controlled areas of what are now northern Germany.

    Also, a human being is a human being. Whenever two supposedly different populations are living in the same space, intermingling will occur, whether it be through actual marriage or otherwise. And Jewish/Christian intermarriage did occur in Europe.

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  • khazaria
    replied
    Can't take Scandinavian prediction literally

    I previously mentioned to this forum how FTDNA thinks I have 4% of Scandinavian genetics... the same situation "John Doe" encountered.

    FTDNA thinks my mother has double that: 8% Scandinavian.

    Neither result conforms to the known ethnic/cultural/geographical circumstances of my mother's Ashkenazic and Sephardic ancestors.

    Eurogenes Jtest's oracle's mixed mode suggests "South_&_Central_Swedish" as a minority element it thinks is possible for me, but that's 20th out of its 20 listed guesses, so the farthest fit, and neither this nor any other Scandinavian ethnicity or region appears in my mother's guesses.

    A tiny fraction being real is conceivable though. So I looked through my matches with a fine-toothed comb.

    My mother and I match a woman with Swedish first and last names and an email address based in Sweden. FTDNA's MyOrigins claims she's 100% European and 0% Ashkenazi. (However sometimes a zero score in MyOrigins is overlooking something that exists in a tiny fraction. I gave such an example before that involved a Bavarian and an Austrian who both scored 0% Ashkenazi in MyOrigins but further investigation showed they have minute Ashkenazic ancestry from the 1700s.) She matches my mom on a total of 37.39 cM with the longest block 20.04 cM so that's definitely IBD. She matches me for a total of 37.84 cM and the longest block is 11.82 cM. There are 16 pages worth of people in common between she and my mom, including other Ashkenazim, (10 people per page) and in my experience this number of pages in common given the current size of the database suggests our match has a tiny amount of Ashkenazic ancestry herself.

    My mother and I match a woman from central Sweden. 36.15 total and 15.86 longest block with my mom, 38.74 total and 15.78 longest block with me. She and my mom have 44 pages of matches in common. With well over 400 people in common it should be presumed that this Swede is partly Ashkenazic.

    My mother matches a woman with Swedish first and last names and a Swedish email address, 33.81 total and 10.17 longest. They have 70 pages of matches in common. Again this Swede must be partly Ashkenazic.

    My mother and I match somebody who's paternally English and Scottish, and maternally Swedish going back centuries with ancestors with typical Swedish names and patronymics. There are 15 pages of matches in common between me and this person. Longest block shared with me is 9.15 and total shared is 22.01. I assume this person squeaks by as part-Ashkenazic as 15 pages is in the border area of what I see in our results.

    A man from Sweden with a three-part all-Swedish name plus Swedish ancestral surnames shares only one person in common with me and that person is the mixed Brit-Swede in the previous paragraph. This man doesn't match my mom, and doesn't triangulate on the same block with me and the Brit-Swede. Longest block 8.05 cM and total shared 21.34. This match doesn't look real to me.

    A woman with a Swedish surname whose ancestors also had Scandinavian surnames and patronymics and one German surname, and whose most distant paternal and maternal line ancestors lived in Sweden, matches 45 pages of people in common with me, and also matches my mom. Longest block 15.85 and total 35.15 with me, same 15.85 block but total 25.7 with my mom. Notice that my total cM shared with this Swede is much higher than what my mom shares, so my father gave me extra DNA that's also in common with the Swede. I presume this Swede has some Ashkenazic ancestry, perhaps through their German ancestor.

    A man with Scandinavian first and last names and roots mostly in Denmark and Norway with a long list of Scandinavian surnames and patronymics, but also two German surnames that are also common among Jews, has only 2 pages in common with me (15 matches exactly) including Ashkenazim, but doesn't match my mom. Matching me on 8.24 longest block and 28.95 total. Could be IBS.

    I don't see a solid case for my having Scandinavian origins here.

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  • Bill Masterson
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    Unless Gedmatch shows some Ashkenazi, I would not make much of 0.3%.
    Thank you for the response.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Masterson View Post
    My maternal grandmother's mother and father came to the USA from Sweden. My 23andme results came back showing 0.3% Ashkenazi. On my paternal side, my father came to the USA from Ireland. I've assumed that the Ashkenazi link originates on my Mother's side. The Ashkenazi link might also explain a medical condition I was diagnosed with several years which occurs primarily in Ashkenazi men and some from the "Mediterranean." ftdna results suggest a 20% Scandinavian make-up; Ancestry estimates 24% Scandinavian and 23andme 9.4%.
    Unless Gedmatch shows some Ashkenazi, I would not make much of 0.3%.

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