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Help. Asia Minor DNA in Italians

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  • #46
    Originally posted by montagnoli View Post
    Yes, some matches can be just noise. In the case of these Finnish, Norwegian and Siberian matches, the largest segment shared is of no more than 10 cM, and so I am aware of the noise possibility. I just think that I can't take anything for granted. Maybe these matches are only noise, maybe not. It's a thing to be investigated.
    I found this document. The reference population for the Fennoscandian component in Eurogenes is only from Finns.
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3...xQdGpZdW8/edit

    The Iberian component for Italians indicate DEEP ANCESTRY, as does the West Meditteranean component which is taken from Sardegna only. This is almost 100% stock from Mesolithic...?

    Well, the most recent common ancestors who I (supposedly) have with the matches in question are five to seven generations behind, according to results on Gedmatch. Anyway, until my 3rd-great-grandparents I have a complete paper trail (all the 32 antenati), and so it must be more than 5 generations behind.
    Well, by default, you know then half of the 6th generation surnames on each paternal line (assuming continuity on all lines). I find it unlikely that half of your 6th is contributing to Finnish genes, but I hope you learn a lot from investigating this. It is a challenge.

    You are aware that if you would have 25% of Finnish, that would not necessarily mean you have a grandmother/father from Finnland, right? It means (unless you have such a intact chunk) that you accumulated from many ancestors far back in time some tiny pieces that amount to 25%. Does that make sense to you?

    Good point. I've already complained that there seems to be too few Italians taking dna tests. On Family Finder, the majority of my matches are from US and Canada... But it would be quite a surprise for me to discover that Finnish results are not rare for Veneti (and for Italians in general) in ancestrality tests.
    Is there any piece of history that would help you to decipher this puzzle? I wish I knew more of this.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by malchik View Post
      I found this document. The reference population for the Fennoscandian component in Eurogenes is only from Finns.
      https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3...xQdGpZdW8/edit
      Yes, I was aware of it. One of the matches I mentioned above has 81.57% Fennoscandian on k36.


      Originally posted by malchik View Post
      Well, by default, you know then half of the 6th generation surnames on each paternal line (assuming continuity on all lines). I find it unlikely that half of your 6th is contributing to Finnish genes, but I hope you learn a lot from investigating this. It is a challenge.

      You are aware that if you would have 25% of Finnish, that would not necessarily mean you have a grandmother/father from Finnland, right? It means (unless you have such a intact chunk) that you accumulated from many ancestors far back in time some tiny pieces that amount to 25%. Does that make sense to you?
      Given that Italians (supposedly) don't usually have any Finnish dna, I think that if an Italian person gets around 25% Finnish in his/her results, it's highly probable that he/she has one Finnish grandparent. Yet if he/she gets 25% Asia Minor (using the same example again ), I think it is probable that each one of his/her four grandparents has around that percentage of dna from Asia Minor.

      Thus I believe that my 6.56% Fennoscandian on k36 could be explained by one Finnish 2nd-great-grandparent. But my paper trail includes all my 16 2nd-great-grandparents, and none of them is Finnish... I could have two Finnish 3rd-great-grandparents, but it's also not the case. To be sure, I don't know the names of all my 64 4th-great-grandparents. If just one of them was Finnish, would I have around 6% Finnish dna? I know that one Finnish 4th-great-grandparent does not mean exactly 1/64 (or 1.5625%) Finnish dna. But would I have 6% in such a case? I could have, say, three Finnish 4th-great-grandparents, in three different lines, but this is so improbable!


      Originally posted by malchik View Post
      Is there any piece of history that would help you to decipher this puzzle? I wish I knew more of this.
      I am not aware of any episode in the history of the Republic of Venice involving relations with Finland. The "Serenissima" had commercial relations mainly with the Middle East. Regarding to my own family history, my grandparents (when they were alive), used to say that their ancestors were in Veneto "since always"... So it continues to be a mistery. Well, it means that I have a new motive to go ahead with my paper trail !

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by montagnoli View Post
        I am not aware of any episode in the history of the Republic of Venice involving relations with Finland. The "Serenissima" had commercial relations mainly with the Middle East. Regarding to my own family history, my grandparents (when they were alive), used to say that their ancestors were in Veneto "since always"... So it continues to be a mistery. Well, it means that I have a new motive to go ahead with my paper trail !
        As far as I can tell from my experience (from browsing 10.000 pages of stato civile records from a time span of 100 years (from 1800 to 1900), I rarely saw any non-italian surname in the Veneto areas I searched for. This would mean in my case the 6th or 7th generation i.e. maximum of 1.56% or 0.78% contribution from each ancestor. I think it is very unlikely that you had any 100% Finnish ancestor, most likely that is ancient DNA shared by surrounding populations that carried with them some Finnish blood over centuries and accumulated in you. Compare yourself with Austrians, Slovenians, Germans, Serbians, Hungarians, etc... see how much to they have of this type of ethniticy. That is interesting.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by malchik View Post
          As far as I can tell from my experience (from browsing 10.000 pages of stato civile records from a time span of 100 years (from 1800 to 1900), I rarely saw any non-italian surname in the Veneto areas I searched for. This would mean in my case the 6th or 7th generation i.e. maximum of 1.56% or 0.78% contribution from each ancestor. I think it is very unlikely that you had any 100% Finnish ancestor, most likely that is ancient DNA shared by surrounding populations that carried with them some Finnish blood over centuries and accumulated in you. Compare yourself with Austrians, Slovenians, Germans, Serbians, Hungarians, etc... see how much to they have of this type of ethniticy. That is interesting.
          I browsed also a lot of registry pages at Antenati and at Family Search sites (both of Stato Civile Italiano and of Stato Civile Napoleonico), and I don't remember of having seen one foreign surname. Perhaps in Venezia, but I doubt that you will find foreign surnames in the registries of small villages.

          That said, I think that I actually was, as you said above, doing statistics of small numbers. I received yesterday results of a mtFull Sequence test, and saw that my mt haplogroup is V3. Here is the brief description ftdna provides for this hg:

          "Mitochondrial haplogroup V is a primarily European haplogroup and underwent an expansion within Europe beginning approximately 13,000 years ago. Though it occurs at low frequency throughout Europe, it is interesting to note that the highest frequency of haplogroup V is found among the Saami in Finland and the Catalunya region of Spain. Some evidence suggests that individuals bearing haplogroup V participated in the colonization of Europe following the last period of glaciation. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup".

          There is again a connection with Finland, but, looking at the list of people in hg V, at MitoSearch site, I saw a lot of Italians and, specifically, of Veneti. So it seems that, maybe, my results in MO were not so uncommon for the Veneti as I was thinking they were...

          Therefore I think you are right when you say that those 5% Finnish which I've got on MO represent ancient dna accumulated over the centuries, and not some recent 100% Finnish ancestor.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by montagnoli View Post
            Therefore I think you are right when you say that those 5% Finnish which I've got on MO represent ancient dna accumulated over the centuries, and not some recent 100% Finnish ancestor.
            Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!

            Comment


            • #51
              asia Minor

              Hi, i am from Brazil and when I firt took the test it was:

              96% European

              -85% southern europe
              -12% scandinavian
              -3% northern africa
              -1 % amerindian

              I was surprised and had to argue with my mother and my aunt that their grandmother wasnt german but scandinavian.
              My fathers family is mainly portuguese and we know most were marranos/sephardic.i was hoping to see smething about it.Also my mother has african roots from black slavery so I expected to see at least 1% west african,

              Now that they have changed the results I got:


              North and Central America 2%
              South America 0%
              North Africa 3%
              East Europe 11%
              Scandinavia 9%
              Southeast Europe 9%
              Iberia 57%
              north africa 3%
              asia minor 9%

              jewish diaspora 0%


              now it shows my german and italian heritage correctly.For great-grandparents it would be corretc.right?
              I am south american and my indigenous ancestor were from south brazil near uruguay, so it couldnt be north american.

              but this 9 percent scandinavian is still a mistery to me.

              in my case what this asia minor heritage could be? my italian greatgrandfather was from north italy -Piemonte.
              I have an unknown heritage from another european country, my italian family was from another country, they immigrated to italy in ther middle of the 1600, I dont know frm where and real surname.We guess it would be switzerland or France, they crossed the pyranees in the middle of the night.

              as for the portugueses I only know part of them were marranos, I dont know where they were from in Portugal.

              thanks

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by pablita View Post
                Hi, i am from Brazil and when I firt took the test it was:

                96% European

                -85% southern europe
                -12% scandinavian
                -3% northern africa
                -1 % amerindian

                I was surprised and had to argue with my mother and my aunt that their grandmother wasnt german but scandinavian.
                My fathers family is mainly portuguese and we know most were marranos/sephardic.i was hoping to see smething about it.Also my mother has african roots from black slavery so I expected to see at least 1% west african,

                Now that they have changed the results I got:


                North and Central America 2%
                South America 0%
                North Africa 3%
                East Europe 11%
                Scandinavia 9%
                Southeast Europe 9%
                Iberia 57%
                north africa 3%
                asia minor 9%

                jewish diaspora 0%


                now it shows my german and italian heritage correctly.For great-grandparents it would be corretc.right?
                I am south american and my indigenous ancestor were from south brazil near uruguay, so it couldnt be north american.

                but this 9 percent scandinavian is still a mistery to me.

                in my case what this asia minor heritage could be? my italian greatgrandfather was from north italy -Piemonte.
                I have an unknown heritage from another european country, my italian family was from another country, they immigrated to italy in ther middle of the 1600, I dont know frm where and real surname.We guess it would be switzerland or France, they crossed the pyranees in the middle of the night.

                as for the portugueses I only know part of them were marranos, I dont know where they were from in Portugal.

                thanks
                Hi pablita!

                They must doing corrections on new myOrigins. The people with Portuguese origin get East Europe, on new my Origins. I got no East Europe before. Now, I get 4%. Maybe, your Asia Minor came from your Italian origin. Italians, Arabs, Phoenicians, Turkish, Greeks and Armenians, beyond Sephardic get Asia Minor. I got 8%. Now, I get a noise of 2%. My Sephardic ancestry is strong, by my paper trail and the knowledge that I have about Marranos/New-Christians, in Brazil, but, I get 0% of Sephardic. I just get 2% of Ashkenazim. A lot of people with Sephardic ancestry cannot get Sephardic, on new myOrigins. They must re-run the results. A lot of Iberians cannot get Iberia. All the Iberians get North Africa. My North Africa did increase from 4% to 5%. My mother's North Africa did increase from 2% to 6%. Sephardic must be there as well.

                Natan
                Last edited by winner; 8th April 2017, 08:05 PM. Reason: Correction

                Comment


                • #53
                  On the old origins, I got 16% Asia Minor. With the new origins, I have 21% AM. How is it possible that I got MORE AM?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Sephardic in MO.

                    Yes I have the same problem many Sephardic matches on mtdna line none on new MO. seems strange.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      [QUOTE=Anizio;405985][QUOTE=Taz85;405984]Italy has has tons of influx throughout history from the middle east and from Anatolia.

                      For 24% of my DNA to show up as Asia Minor, that would be a pretty damn high amount of Anatolian ancestors. Too high. I know some Southern Italians with 40-50%.

                      Sorry but that explains nothing, its a theory without evidentiary support.

                      I do have Abruzzo ancestors from the Paeligni territory in the 1600s. From Sulmona, Pescocostanzo, and Rivisondoli. We could be related but I am not on Gedmatch
                      Have you had your Y-DNA done?

                      I had my Uncle tested as we are also from Abruzzi but it turns out our family is probably part of an Arbërëshe clan as our Y-DNA is actually Balkan not Italian although I can go back to the 1700s with our family. The surname is actually ambiguous as it could be Albanian, Turkish, Bulgarian, Slavic or Italian (had it not had the accent).

                      The Ottoman Turks did invade right across the Adriatic Sea...

                      I also have a significant percentage of Asia Minor ancestry in addition to some Iberian, Italian & Balkan, and small % of Pakistani and West African.

                      I am sure most of that encompasses the Ottoman sweep across the Balkans and then my ancestors trek across the Adriatic to Italy and marriage with Italian women.

                      I have no idea what your ancestry is - if it is 100% Italian or partial - but remember these percentages are not recent. I understand that you are questioning the quantity as well. Has any else in your family tested here?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        surnames

                        Hi, how do you do know if the portuguese matches are sephardic? our surnames are pretty much the same, from my father family I know that the Pereira da silva is new christian and probably Pinto is too, my grandmother has surname Pinto from both sides.Do you think 12andme could solve this? on gedmatch i got crazy results with the eurotests.got volga, north sea and very few iberic.




                        Originally posted by winner View Post
                        Hi pablita!

                        They must doing corrections on new myOrigins. The people with Portuguese origin get East Europe, on new my Origins. I got no East Europe before. Now, I get 4%. Maybe, your Asia Minor came from your Italian origin. Italians, Arabs, Phoenicians, Turkish, Greeks and Armenians, beyond Sephardic get Asia Minor. I got 8%. Now, I get a noise of 2%. My Sephardic ancestry is strong, by my paper trail and the knowledge that I have about Marranos/New-Christians, in Brazil, but, I get 0% of Sephardic. I just get 2% of Ashkenazim. A lot of people with Sephardic ancestry cannot get Sephardic, on new myOrigins. They must re-run the results. A lot of Iberians cannot get Iberia. All the Iberians get North Africa. My North Africa did increase from 4% to 5%. My mother's North Africa did increase from 2% to 6%. Sephardic must be there as well.

                        Natan

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Hi,

                          Just thought I'd post MyOrigins results for reference. They're quite clear cut:
                          81% European - 19% Middle Eastern.
                          My paternal grand-parents were both South Italians, which might explain my rather high percentage of Middle-Eastern ethnicity (12% Asia Minor and 7% East Middle East). I'm a bit surprised by this East Middle East percentage though. Do you think it might also come from my paternal grand-parents? My maternal line is French, and they've been in N-E France for at least 400 years (we can't trace the line beyond the late XVIIth Century, as there was no record before). My Mtdna is W (just took the Mtdna+ test).

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Audela View Post
                            Hi,

                            Just thought I'd post MyOrigins results for reference. They're quite clear cut:
                            81% European - 19% Middle Eastern.
                            My paternal grand-parents were both South Italians, which might explain my rather high percentage of Middle-Eastern ethnicity (12% Asia Minor and 7% East Middle East). I'm a bit surprised by this East Middle East percentage though. Do you think it might also come from my paternal grand-parents? My maternal line is French, and they've been in N-E France for at least 400 years (we can't trace the line beyond the late XVIIth Century, as there was no record before). My Mtdna is W (just took the Mtdna+ test).

                            East ME could reflect Arabic lines

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                              East ME could reflect Arabic lines
                              Yes, probably, I wonder where that comes from (prob. paternal side). I guess some of my ancestors took part in the Arabic conquest then since the MyOrigins map follows a trail: East-Middle-East, then Asia Minor, then Southern Europe, and then Central/Western Europe, with a bit of Eastern Europe. (Sorry I'm new to this, I'm only starting to explore the whole genealogy/genetics thing).

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Audela View Post
                                Hi,

                                Just thought I'd post MyOrigins results for reference. They're quite clear cut:
                                81% European - 19% Middle Eastern.
                                My paternal grand-parents were both South Italians, which might explain my rather high percentage of Middle-Eastern ethnicity (12% Asia Minor and 7% East Middle East). I'm a bit surprised by this East Middle East percentage though. Do you think it might also come from my paternal grand-parents? My maternal line is French, and they've been in N-E France for at least 400 years (we can't trace the line beyond the late XVIIth Century, as there was no record before). My Mtdna is W (just took the Mtdna+ test).
                                In MyOrigins 3.0 your Asia Minor will disappear and you will have much less Middle East. Believe me.

                                In MyOrigins 2.0 many who had Asia Minor in MyOrigins 1.0 now have zero.

                                My advice is: dont waste your time comparing or speculating unless you are in this for fun and not for serious genealogy.

                                Comment

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