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  • #31
    Originally posted by malchik View Post
    I would be inclined to think that this Asia Minor DNA is a false flag... Does anybody know how does that appear in AncestryDNA test?
    What do you mean about 'false'

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by malchik View Post
      Thanks for sharing your information.



      I dont have any Finnish. The middle of the 18th is not actually really very far (4-5 generations). But assuming it is not a problem with the test, wouldnt it be so interesting to know that you might have some ancestor from any country with finno-ugric populations, most likely from Hungary...?
      Certainly it would be a very interesting discovery. However, I am more inclined to believe that it is some sort of problem with the model used by ftdna to estimate admixture percentiles. I say so because, until 19th century, my ancestors were all contadini from small villages in Veneto. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that it was not very likely for one of those contadini to get involved with someone from abroad.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by josh w. View Post
        What do you mean about 'false'
        I completely speculate that the association to Asia Minor is not correct. What is exactly meant by Asia Minor in FTDNA might be labeled something else in other tests.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by montagnoli View Post
          Certainly it would be a very interesting discovery. However, I am more inclined to believe that it is some sort of problem with the model used by ftdna to estimate admixture percentiles. I say so because, until 19th century, my ancestors were all contadini from small villages in Veneto. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that it was not very likely for one of those contadini to get involved with someone from abroad.
          Regarding the contadini isolation, that is exactly my case, so I also share the view that the association might be unlikely. I have 0% Finnish DNA in my results.

          Comment


          • #35
            additional info

            My Italian/Asia Minor percentages are small (7%) but i wanted to point out that that 7% shows as "Italy/Greece" on ancestry.com and "Asia Minor" on FTDNA. Everything else matches up between the two results except for that 7%. It's actually the same test, i just transferred the ancestry kit to FTDNA.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Matt Jivin View Post
              My Italian/Asia Minor percentages are small (7%) but i wanted to point out that that 7% shows as "Italy/Greece" on ancestry.com and "Asia Minor" on FTDNA. Everything else matches up between the two results except for that 7%. It's actually the same test, i just transferred the ancestry kit to FTDNA.
              That's an interesting information! Thank you for sharing.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by malchik View Post
                Regarding the contadini isolation, that is exactly my case, so I also share the view that the association might be unlikely. I have 0% Finnish DNA in my results.
                Hi malchik. Let me ask you a question. I am supposing you are also north-Italian (or from north-Italian origin, anyway). You said you have 0% Finnish on MO. My question is: do you have a non-zero percentage of Fennoscandian on Eurogenes k-36? Another question: do you have dna matches from Finland, Norway or northern Russia (Siberia)? I am asking you these questions because I have 6,56% Fennoscandian on k-36, and also autosomal and X matches from the places which I've mentioned above, and I would like to know if these facts have any statistic significance. In the case of X matches, I have two from Norway and five from north Russia. Given that I share segments of no more than 10 cM with these people, if other people of norhern Italian origin also have matches from such places I would disregard these facts as not having statistic relevance. I thank you in advance.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by montagnoli View Post
                  Hi malchik. Let me ask you a question. I am supposing you are also north-Italian (or from north-Italian origin, anyway). You said you have 0% Finnish on MO. My question is: do you have a non-zero percentage of Fennoscandian on Eurogenes k-36? Another question: do you have dna matches from Finland, Norway or northern Russia (Siberia)? I am asking you these questions because I have 6,56% Fennoscandian on k-36, and also autosomal and X matches from the places which I've mentioned above, and I would like to know if these facts have any statistic significance. In the case of X matches, I have two from Norway and five from north Russia. Given that I share segments of no more than 10 cM with these people, if other people of norhern Italian origin also have matches from such places I would disregard these facts as not having statistic relevance. I thank you in advance.
                  Ciao montagnoli, yes, the majority of my ancestors come from Veneto. I have 0.6 Fennoscandian in K36 and no clearly identifiable matches in MO from the countries you mentioned.

                  I cannot say whether your results have any statistic relevance or not. I think it is plausible that some calculators simply associate some markers to some ethnicity, lets say A, in the presence of admixture B, when otherwise it would associate to C in the lack of admixture B. So in your case, you could have more or less than 6.56% Fennoscandian.

                  For example, it is easier to differentiate South Chinese component in an European test taker with such mixed ancestry, then in an Vietnamese test taker. Capisci?

                  Is your haplogroup I1?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by malchik View Post
                    Ciao montagnoli, yes, the majority of my ancestors come from Veneto. I have 0.6 Fennoscandian in K36 and no clearly identifiable matches in MO from the countries you mentioned.

                    I cannot say whether your results have any statistic relevance or not. I think it is plausible that some calculators simply associate some markers to some ethnicity, lets say A, in the presence of admixture B, when otherwise it would associate to C in the lack of admixture B. So in your case, you could have more or less than 6.56% Fennoscandian.

                    For example, it is easier to differentiate South Chinese component in an European test taker with such mixed ancestry, then in an Vietnamese test taker. Capisci?

                    Is your haplogroup I1?
                    Ciao malchik, it's nice to know that you are also from Veneto (la terra dove i osei camina e el leon vola ). Thank you for your answer. I was inclined to consider my 5% Finnish result on MO as a problem of that calculator, but this Fennoscandian result on k-36, and, above all, these matches, are really intriguing me a bit.

                    My Y haplogroup is R-M269 (R1b1a), but I've done just the str test. I intend to do snp test soon, in order to know in what subclade I am. Anyway, I am suspecting that this Finnish result is from my maternal side, because of those Finnish, Norwegian and Siberian X-matches (I have those matches at Gedmatch, not at Family Finder). I have also a lot of matches whose mitochondrial haplogroup is U5.

                    Now I am awaiting results from a mtFull Sequence test. Maybe my results in this test can reveal something interesting regarding these matches and the rest. As I said before, I continue to think as something very unlikely (although not impossible, of course) that contadini from small villages in Veneto would get involved with someone from abroad. La ringrazio ancora.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Magyars (Hungary) and Finns descend from the same population near the Ural Mts. They share a similar language and many from both have the N haplogroup. You might look into that.

                      However the Finns peopled Finland I think 2000 years ago and the Magyars 1000 years ago so who knows if MO would counting Hungarian blended in with existing Europeans as Southern European or Eastern European instead of Finnish. It might take someone with Hungarian ancestry to post their results to see.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by montagnoli View Post
                        As I said before, I continue to think as something very unlikely (although not impossible, of course) that contadini from small villages in Veneto would get involved with someone from abroad. La ringrazio ancora.
                        My interpretation is that the results we get in MO, GEDMatch do not mean that our ancestors were French, Finnish, Italians, Spaniards, British, etc... which somehow mingled to generate our DNA today.

                        I first assume that at some point back in time there were small groups of people, lets call them A, B, C, etc... which went into different directions mixing with each other in different proportions.

                        There werent so many people in the past, not even with formed identities, so diverse from each other genetically... mutations in time created more diversity.
                        That is why I find hilarious when people readily assume there is a connection between England and Veneto (when they see 5% British Isles) and readily attribute this to "Romans" of any kind...

                        Imagine in your 5th generation you have 32 surnames. All of them are from Germany. These 16 couples have many children, who go north, south, east and west. They, in turn, have their own many children, some of them mingle among themselves with cousins who went north, south, east and west.

                        In your case I would assume

                        FIRST: you share some DEEP ANCESTRY with Finns, but you are not necessarily descending from any Finn yourself, as they are not descending from any Northern Italian themselves.

                        SECOND: you do have a greatgreatgrandmother/father who was ethnically close to/ or coming directly from a Finnougric population or some group of ancestors around 500 years ago...

                        THIRD: ?

                        The admixture % does not come with a time stamp. One thing is to RECENT ANCESTRY and the other thing is DEEP ANCESTRY.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by malchik View Post

                          The admixture % does not come with a time stamp. One thing is to RECENT ANCESTRY and the other thing is DEEP ANCESTRY.
                          My method of reasoning about results got from admixture calculators is the following:

                          a) Firstly I evaluate results in terms of 'normal' x 'unusual'. For instance, 'southern European' and 'central western European' results (in due percentages) are normal results for (ethnic) northern Italians, but 'Finnish', or 'British Isles', are unusual results for them.

                          b) Having considered a result as unusual, I try to find its meaning taking two factors into consideration:

                          1) Is such result actually rare for the population under consideration? For example, the Asia Minor result (on MO) for north Italians seemed strange for me in a first moment, but I saw later that it is not a rare result for that population. It's in fact the opposite: it seems that all Italians (northern or southern) get Asia Minor on MO. In this case, I think the result in question has to be interpreted as showing DEEP ancestry. As I've commented in the other thread, I think a good explanation for Asia Minor result for Italians is dna from neolithic farmers who were in Italy well before the arrival of Indo-European tribes.

                          2) The second factor I consider in order to interpret an unusual result are the matches. Autosomal matches indicate a relatively recent common ancestor. For example, as far as I know, north Italian people do not usualy have autosomal matches in Turkey, despite of the Asia Minor result on MO. This fact seems to support my hypothesis that such result has to do with deep ancestry of Italians. But if you have an unusual result on MO (or Eurogenes, etc.), and you have autosomal matches from that place, then I think the possibility of RECENT ancestry may not be disregarded.

                          Applying the above described method to my case, I am considering the possibility of having a Finnish (or Hungarian) RECENT ancestor. Other north Italians do not have 'Finnish' in their results, so it cannot be ancient dna. And the autosomal matches I have in Finland and Siberia point to a recent ancestor from that region. I don't take it for granted, though, because this sounds so unlikely for Venetian peasants (if my ancestors were merchants in the time of the Serenissima (Republic of Venice) the story would be different ). Anyway, I think it is a possibility to be investigated.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by gensrchr2 View Post
                            Magyars (Hungary) and Finns descend from the same population near the Ural Mts. They share a similar language and many from both have the N haplogroup. You might look into that.

                            However the Finns peopled Finland I think 2000 years ago and the Magyars 1000 years ago so who knows if MO would counting Hungarian blended in with existing Europeans as Southern European or Eastern European instead of Finnish. It might take someone with Hungarian ancestry to post their results to see.
                            Thank you for your observation. I know people from Hungary. I don't know if someone of them is interested in (genetic) genealogy, but, if so, it would be nice to take a look at their admixture results.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by montagnoli View Post
                              ... In this case, I think the result in question has to be interpreted as showing DEEP ancestry. As I've commented in the other thread, I think a good explanation for Asia Minor result for Italians is dna from neolithic farmers who were in Italy well before the arrival of Indo-European tribes.
                              Reasonable.

                              2) The second factor I consider in order to interpret an unusual result are the matches. Autosomal matches indicate a relatively recent common ancestor.
                              It depends on how you define match and relatively recent common ancestor. Your matches can be distant and indicate a remote common ancestor, but that can be only noise...

                              For example, as far as I know, north Italian people do not usualy have autosomal matches in Turkey, despite of the Asia Minor result on MO. This fact seems to support my hypothesis that such result has to do with deep ancestry of Italians.
                              This is probably because the reference population for Asia Minor is not exactly taken from Turkey, but from Armenia (so I read once...). Plus, because there was no significant interaction (settlements, migration, invasion, occupation, ...) among Northern Italians from Veneto and Turks in the last 1000 years that would show up in admixture (my assumption).

                              But if you have an unusual result on MO (or Eurogenes, etc.), and you have autosomal matches from that place, then I think the possibility of RECENT ancestry may not be disregarded. Applying the above described method to my case, I am considering the possibility of having a Finnish (or Hungarian) RECENT ancestor.
                              That is why I meant with "SECOND", but how RECENT you think?

                              Other north Italians do not have 'Finnish' in their results, so it cannot be ancient dna.
                              Are you sure you are an exception? This can be statistics of small numbers... I have so far very very few matches from Northern Italy, so I still believe there arent many test takers out there sharing their results in the FTDNA matches database.

                              And the autosomal matches I have in Finland and Siberia point to a recent ancestor from that region.
                              I think that probably the last time when the common ancestors of Finnish, Hungarian and Siberian (by the way, places too far away from each other) lived close to each other was at least 2000 years ago, nowhere near Italy.

                              I don't take it for granted, though, because this sounds so unlikely for Venetian peasants (if my ancestors were merchants in the time of the Serenissima (Republic of Venice) the story would be different ). Anyway, I think it is a possibility to be investigated.
                              Yes, it is very intriguing.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by malchik View Post
                                It depends on how you define match and relatively recent common ancestor. Your matches can be distant and indicate a remote common ancestor, but that can be only noise...
                                Yes, some matches can be just noise. In the case of these Finnish, Norwegian and Siberian matches, the largest segment shared is of no more than 10 cM, and so I am aware of the noise possibility. I just think that I can't take anything for granted. Maybe these matches are only noise, maybe not. It's a thing to be investigated.


                                Originally posted by malchik View Post
                                That is why I meant with "SECOND", but how RECENT you think?
                                Well, the most recent common ancestors who I (supposedly) have with the matches in question are five to seven generations behind, according to results on Gedmatch. Anyway, until my 3rd-great-grandparents I have a complete paper trail (all the 32 antenati), and so it must be more than 5 generations behind.


                                Originally posted by malchik View Post
                                Are you sure you are an exception? This can be statistics of small numbers... I have so far very very few matches from Northern Italy, so I still believe there arent many test takers out there sharing their results in the FTDNA matches database.
                                Good point. I've already complained that there seems to be too few Italians taking dna tests. On Family Finder, the majority of my matches are from US and Canada... But it would be quite a surprise for me to discover that Finnish results are not rare for Veneti (and for Italians in general) in ancestrality tests.

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