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  • #61
    Originally posted by Armando View Post
    to see the correct percentage you will have to upload to Gedmatch.
    This too...? Is the methodology at Gedmatch accurate or not...? You said it wasn't, but this implies something else. SO confused.

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    • #62
      My Results (see attached images) Across the board on Gedmatch, when there are admix groupings of South American/Artic Amerindian/ etc. I show up with percentages. A friend of mine, who is a Genetic Genealogist, looked over my results and said that I am def showing up with legit Native admix; she estimates based on my Gedmatch results that I am roughly 4%; implying that it is possible a 3rd Great Grandparent was full; which would line up with my families' oral history about a 2nd Great Grandfather being half. (Now if I could just break down that brick wall and find some records to get past him I would be oh so happy). I too have Early French Acadian ancestry and have two ancestors who were Canadian First Nations (way back, 1600s), who have been independently proven by their Ydna and mtDNA to be Native but the chances of me having any substantial amount is very low from what I have been lead to believe....
      Attached Files

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      • #63
        Lady Alaise,

        That is fascinating. Thank you for posting. Here are my results for comparison. It was hard for me to take screenshot of entire page, but my MDLP one for Mesoamerican for chromosome 22 is 3.2.

        PS - I am sending you a private message...
        Attached Files

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Armando View Post
          Upload your file to www.gedmatch.com and see what you get with the admixture tools then add the Amerindian, East Asian, and Siberian. Those calculators do a lot better with Native American than FTDNA myOrigins.
          Originally posted by kattoo13 View Post
          OK, now I am really confused. Especially with your email to me about my N.A. consistency at Gedmatch, and their problems with methodology...??
          Originally posted by Armando View Post
          If you do have Native American ancestry it will definitely show up but to see the correct percentage you will have to upload to Gedmatch. The NA gets divided up into Native American. Northeast Asian, and Siberian at FTDNA at a much higher level that at the other companies and at Gedmatch.
          Originally posted by kattoo13 View Post
          This too...? Is the methodology at Gedmatch accurate or not...? You said it wasn't, but this implies something else. SO confused.
          Context is very important. Now to clarify what was written and to show it doesn't contradict what I have written - Gedmatch assigns up to 2% Native American to people that don't have Native American ancestry for 14,000 years but the assignments are pretty good when people really do have Native American ancestry above 2%. When people really do have Native American ancestry their Gedmatch, 23andme, and AncestryDNA amounts are normally within about 2.5% between each other. For people that really do have Native American ancestry FTDNA myOrigins breaks up the Native American into New World-Native American, East Asian-Northeast Asian, and European-Finland&Siberia. Most of it does go to New World-Native American but too much gets assigned to East Asian-Northeast Asian which does not happen at 23andme and Ancestry. However, people that really do have Native American ancestry do get New World-Native American at FTDNA myOrigins.

          If you get a DNA test with 23andme and/or AncestryDNA and you get 2% or more Native American then it is real. If you don't get it at those companies then the amounts in Gedmatch are just noise.

          I also made the following statements previously which is basically the same thing I said above. I hope this clarifies the problems with myOrigins and Gedmatch for you.

          Originally posted by Armando View Post
          The 1.3%-1.74% Amerindian at Gedmatch is still most likely noise unless you get it at Ancestry or 23andme as stated in my previous post.
          Originally posted by Armando View Post
          If they also get 2% at Ancestry.com and 23andme then it's extremely likely to be real. If they get and older generation to test and they are 4% or more then it is real.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Armando View Post
            Context is very important. Now to clarify what was written and to show it doesn't contradict what I have written - Gedmatch assigns up to 2% Native American to people that don't have Native American ancestry for 14,000 years but the assignments are pretty good when people really do have Native American ancestry above 2%.
            Exactly...I got MORE than 2% (not "up to 2%"), averaged out, across all chromosomes. For kicks, I even didn't include anything less than 1%, Siberian, or NE Asian when I did the math. If I were to include that, it would be even more.

            I also checked in my chromosome paintings and there are consistent large segments. It's definitely not noise.

            What LadyAlaise's post was interesting to me because my N.A. amounts were even higher, and her geneticist friend seemed to think her results weren't noise either. I may not have documentation in my family, but that does not mean this isn't real...

            Thanks

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            • #66
              Originally posted by kattoo13 View Post
              Exactly...I got MORE than 2% (not "up to 2%"), averaged out, across all chromosomes. For kicks, I even didn't include anything less than 1%, Siberian, or NE Asian when I did the math. If I were to include that, it would be even more.

              I also checked in my chromosome paintings and there are consistent large segments. It's definitely not noise.

              What LadyAlaise's post was interesting to me because my N.A. amounts were even higher, and her geneticist friend seemed to think her results weren't noise either. I may not have documentation in my family, but that does not mean this isn't real...

              Thanks
              I added up all of the segments from your Worl9 Amerindian, which is a calculator that normally has a slightly higher results and you have a total of 36.5%. You are only showing 21 chromosomes in that one so I divided by 21. 36.5%/21=1.73%.

              That is in the noise level. Using the Siberian is more for people without recent Asian ancestry or Finnish ancestry. So that doesn't apply in your circumstance.

              The Eurogenes K9 does have you at 2.27% but that doesn't have Siberian separated. So that can't be used in your case. As I stated before, context is important, very important.

              The problem with all of this are the labels. Asians, Native Americans, and Europeans share ancestry from 14,000 years ago and some of it is showing up in people without Native American ancestry within the past 14,000 years. Some of the markers are showing up as Native American when they really aren't specific to Native Americans. They are more Pan-Eurasian & American. This is causing people to assume they really do have Native American because of the Gedmatch calculators. FTDNA, 23andme, and AncestryDNA which have professionals working in their labs don't create this false belief.

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              • #67
                All of these did not include less than 1%, siberian, or NE Asian in the equation.

                World MDLP:

                Mesoamarican - 15.4 + 3.2 (on chromosome 22 which you can't see in screenshot)
                Arctic Amerindian - 9
                South Amerindian - 9.3
                North Ameridnian - 21.5
                -----------------------
                58.4/22 = 2.65%

                Eurogenes K13:

                47.8/21 (showing)=2.28
                47.8/22 =2.17

                Eurogenes K9B:

                46.8/22 = 2.13%


                Dodecad World 9:

                I got the same as you...1.87%

                As you see...for 3 out of 4, I show above 2%, averaged and not including >1%, Siberian or East Asian. In addition, if a geneticist (Lady Alaise's friend) can safely conclude her Gedmatch results are legit and NOT from 14,000 years ago, I'd have to go by the opinion of a geneticist, and not you...

                I understand you want people to be "well informed," but I disagree with you, just like you disagree with me. I'm not making these numbers up, and the pattern showing up in all of these tests is clearly showing up for a reason.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by kattoo13 View Post
                  All of these did not include less than 1%, siberian, or NE Asian in the equation.

                  World MDLP:

                  Mesoamarican - 15.4 + 3.2 (on chromosome 22 which you can't see in screenshot)
                  Arctic Amerindian - 9
                  South Amerindian - 9.3
                  North Ameridnian - 21.5
                  -----------------------
                  58.4/22 = 2.65%

                  Eurogenes K13:

                  47.8/21 (showing)=2.28
                  47.8/22 =2.17

                  Eurogenes K9B:

                  46.8/22 = 2.13%


                  Dodecad World 9:

                  I got the same as you...1.87%

                  As you see...for 3 out of 4, I show above 2%, averaged and not including >1%, Siberian or East Asian. In addition, if a geneticist (Lady Alaise's friend) can safely conclude her Gedmatch results are legit and NOT from 14,000 years ago, I'd have to go by the opinion of a geneticist, and not you...

                  I understand you want people to be "well informed," but I disagree with you, just like you disagree with me. I'm not making these numbers up, and the pattern showing up in all of these tests is clearly showing up for a reason.
                  If that is the conclusion you want to reach without testing with 23andme and AncestryDNA that's fine but I still can't agree that it is more recent until I see results from those companies.

                  The "Genetic Genealogist" has not stated that you specifically descend from Native Americans and we have no idea who that "Genetic Genealogist" is. Has that "Genetic Genealogist" person looked at the World MDLP results of Europeans born and raised in Europe?

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Armando View Post
                    If that is the conclusion you want to reach without testing with 23andme and AncestryDNA that's fine but I still can't agree that it is more recent until I see results from those companies.
                    I don't need you to "agree" with me, to feel confident in how I feel. And, I definitely don't need to take another test (AncestryDNA?? Terrible...), to prove anything to you. My consistency in Gedmatch is good enough for me. Just let it go...

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                    • #70
                      2% Native American admixture? Way too low to be considered real, even if it was found on 5 different calculators. I even show 2% on some calculators, even on Dr.McDonald's results. But like he told me, it's noise.

                      2% is too low to be considered real. 5% on multiple calculators would show it to be real.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
                        2% Native American admixture? Way too low to be considered real, even if it was found on 5 different calculators. I even show 2% on some calculators, even on Dr.McDonald's results. But like he told me, it's noise.

                        2% is too low to be considered real. 5% on multiple calculators would show it to be real.
                        That's exactly what I have been saying and Dr. Doug McDonald is a scientist.
                        Last edited by Armando; 12 June 2015, 08:00 AM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by kattoo13 View Post
                          I don't need you to "agree" with me, to feel confident in how I feel. And, I definitely don't need to take another test (AncestryDNA?? Terrible...), to prove anything to you. My consistency in Gedmatch is good enough for me. Just let it go...
                          This isn't just about us. It is also about the genetic genealogy community in general. It is also about the process of elimination in that you have to question if it happens in other groups of people that don't have Native American ancestry. Such as - Does it happen to people born and raised Europe, the Middle East, West Asian, and South Asia? If shows up in people from all of those populations at a high enough rate then it is due to common ancestry. Since it does happen to all of those population we then need to look at the data on the history of people. Based on ancient remains and archaeology we know that the common ancestry is from when the ancestors of Native Americans lived in Asia or Eurasia. After that there is some speculation of some backflow and some later migrations to America but that was more limited and still probably over 10,000 years ago. No matter how you slice it the common ancestry is very ancient and not directly from more recent Native American admixture.
                          Last edited by Armando; 12 June 2015, 08:19 AM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Armando View Post
                            No matter how you slice it the common ancestry is very ancient and not directly from more recent Native American admixture.
                            Can you really be so sure?

                            As long as we have had vessels that sailed the seven seas, sailors have been spreading their DNA around the world. I have no doubt that some people that were at least part Native American served on sailing ships during the 18th Century. From a time of a much smaller world population than we have now, I would be surprised if traces of this did not show up today. By the period of the American Revolution, surely some Loyalist families had Native American in them. We had a big migration of Loyalist out of the American Colonies/United States as a result of the outcome. These people may have migrated to just about anywhere in the world. Native American showing up in "unlikely" places is not so implausible.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by georgian1950 View Post
                              Can you really be so sure?

                              As long as we have had vessels that sailed the seven seas, sailors have been spreading their DNA around the world. I have no doubt that some people that were at least part Native American served on sailing ships during the 18th Century. From a time of a much smaller world population than we have now, I would be surprised if traces of this did not show up today. By the period of the American Revolution, surely some Loyalist families had Native American in them. We had a big migration of Loyalist out of the American Colonies/United States as a result of the outcome. These people may have migrated to just about anywhere in the world. Native American showing up in "unlikely" places is not so implausible.
                              Well said. I couldn't agree more...

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
                                2% Native American admixture? Way too low to be considered real, even if it was found on 5 different calculators. I even show 2% on some calculators, even on Dr.McDonald's results. But like he told me, it's noise.

                                2% is too low to be considered real. 5% on multiple calculators would show it to be real.
                                I have to disagree. On 23andMe I show .1% Subsaharan African. On GEDmatch I show between 1% to 1.95% Subsaharan African, depending on the tool being used. On 23andMe and GEDmatch, these pieces of DNA identified as African consistently show up, via chromosome painting, on the same chromosomes on the exact same spot. Also, on GEDmatch, my son consistently shows half the percentage of Subsaharan African I do using the various tools.

                                It would be easy to dismiss this as noise, however, I have genealogically proof that I am descended from a mix raced family from colonial tidewater Virginia. Male cousins in this line have tested with the y-haplogroup E1b1a8a, which is Subsaharan African. Although a tiny amount, there is no doubt the Subsaharan African in my DNA results is real.

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