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  • Parent/child autosomal matches

    Hi, Dano's wife here again, I'm hoping someone can give me some insight here. Our daughter has tested on Ancestry and her results are due any day now. The question we have is this, we know she will get one of her xdna's from me and the other from Dano, so is she therefore going to match cousins who would be on Dano's father's side? Dano has a half niece and half nephew, and half grand niece and half grand nephew on his maternal side, who do not match some of his other matches on Ancestry, but who we expect our daughter to match. He also has a 1st cousin 1x removed on MyHeritage, who we think may be a paternal match, given that she will not have inherited Dano's ydna, is she likely to be a match to who we think are Dano's paternal matches. Our daughter is going to upload her dna to FTDNA, as there are matches on here that are also on Ancestry and Gedmatch that we cannot place, she will also upload to MyHeritage to see who else she will match on there. Any insights on what we can expect? Thanks for any info.

  • #2
    First: your daughter will match Dano's relatives from both his maternal and paternal sides on Chromosomes 1-22 (and the X, if applicable) at any of the main DNA testing companies. Dano received half of his autosomal chromosomes (1-22) from his mother and half from his father, as you did, so your daughter has inherited roughly 25% of her chromosomes 1-22 from each of her four grandparents. She will have autosomal segments which may match relatives from any branches of both Dano's and your ancestors. See animations for the four types of DNA if you are at all unsure about them (autosomal, X-DNA, Y-DNA, and mtDNA).

    The autosomal test results at the four main companies do not use Y or mtDNA in matching*, only Chromosomes 1-22, plus the X chromosome. The female 1C1R at MyHeritage does not have a Y chromosome, true, but that has nothing to do with how she will match Dano or his daughter. If she shares matches with Dano or his daughter with any known paternal relatives of Dano, then she should be related on Dano's paternal side. A 1C1R can be identified if Dano knows who his first cousins are (1C), and who their children are (1C1R). Is she the known child of one of Dano's known paternal aunts or uncles?
    X-DNA:
    X chromosome inheritance follows a unique path, as shown in the articles and charts at these links:The X-inheritance pattern for men is different from the pattern for women, as women have two X chromosomes. You can download blank charts showing the inheritance patterns for the X chromosome, and fill in with the names of the appropriate ancestors. The inheritance patterns are illustrated and explained at the above links.
    • Matching on the X is not as common as matching on the other 22 chromosomes. But because the inheritance pattern of the X chromosome is unique, and follows only certain lines, sometimes it is useful in figuring out how a match may be related.
    • Another important point about the X chromosome is that the segment size is important: while a 7 to 10 cM segment is usually regarded as the minimum size to consider for Chromosomes 1-22, for the X chromosome you should at least double that (15-20 cM minimum) to use for genealogy.
    • Be careful at FTDNA, because many of the matches who show as an "X-match" may only share under 7 cM, thus could be IBS (Inheritance by State, or not sharing a common ancestor, vs. IBD, Inheritance by Descent, sharing a common ancestor). Always check X-matches in the Chromosome Browser to make sure the X segment is large enough to be of any use. Also beware if a match has a very large segment or complete match on the X chromosome, but no or very few matching segments on Chromosomes 1-22. This is some kind of glitch at FTDNA, so if you see any matches like that, you should contact Customer Support.
    The X chromosome is one of the two sex chromosomes (along with the Y), but is tested with and is shown in certain results with the autosomal tests at the usual four companies:
    • FTDNA (Family Finder) - X is seen in the Chromosome Browser, and is in raw data download; also people who match on the X chromosome are labeled as "X-match" in the Family Finder - Matches list
    • Ancestry - has no Chromosome Browser, but X is shown as Chromosome 23 in the raw data download
    • MyHeritage - currently X is not shown in their Chromosome Browser; I believe X is shown in the raw data download if you tested there, but no download is available if you uploaded a file from elsewhere
    • 23andMe (just for good measure) - you can view the X chromosome in the Chromosome Browser, and it is in the raw data download
    Sometimes the X chromosome appears in the raw data files labeled as Chromosome "23" or "X," depending on the company. With all the above, if you tested at the company, you can download the raw data and upload to GEDmatch to compare all chromosomes, including X (but not Y or mtDNA).

    *23andMe also tests a select group of markers to give a general mtDNA haplogroup to men and women, and a general Y haplogroup to men. Usually those selected markers can give a fairly good, sometimes very good, haplogroup estimate, but FTDNA can test further to give full results for mtDNA and Y-DNA.
    Last edited by KATM; 19 April 2021, 12:27 PM.

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    • #3
      Thank you for this, I hadn't realised that the X chromosome was number 23, although why I hadn't I don't know. The other thing I may have misled about is that the 1C1R on MyHeritage is male and not female, I think it was the way I phrased it. What I should have said was that given our daughter will not receive Dano's YDNA, is our daughter likely to match who we think may be Dano's paternal matches. We don't know for certain that there are paternal matches as we don't know Dano's father, and to complicate matters there are one or two shared matches with the 1C1R who we know are definitely linked to Dano's maternal side, although they are distant 5-8th cousins mostly. The MRCA suggested with the 1C1R on MyHeritage is 2.9 generations and having looked at the match's tree, we don't know anyone on it or recognise any names, that is the reason we wondered how or if, our daughter would match any paternal relatives and how would we know which they were. Bit complicated but I hope you know what I mean, I will have a look at the links you listed to see what I can learn, and thank you again for your help.

      The shared matches I mentioned are linked to Dano's maternal side, not the 1C1R's maternal side.
      Last edited by Dano; 19 April 2021, 01:44 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Dano View Post
        Thank you for this, I hadn't realised that the X chromosome was number 23, although why I hadn't I don't know. The other thing I may have misled about is that the 1C1R on MyHeritage is male and not female, I think it was the way I phrased it. What I should have said was that given our daughter will not receive Dano's YDNA, is our daughter likely to match who we think may be Dano's paternal matches. We don't know for certain that there are paternal matches as we don't know Dano's father, and to complicate matters there are one or two shared matches with the 1C1R who we know are definitely linked to Dano's maternal side, although they are distant 5-8th cousins mostly. The MRCA suggested with the 1C1R on MyHeritage is 2.9 generations and having looked at the match's tree, we don't know anyone on it or recognise any names, that is the reason we wondered how or if, our daughter would match any paternal relatives and how would we know which they were. Bit complicated but I hope you know what I mean, I will have a look at the links you listed to see what I can learn, and thank you again for your help.

        The shared matches I mentioned are linked to Dano's maternal side, not the 1C1R's maternal side.
        Thanks for the additional information, which you probably had in some of your other posts that I've seen, but didn't remember. Now I recall that Dano's father is unknown.

        Since the tests at Ancestry, MyHeritage, and FTDNA are all autosomal tests, they do not include the Y chromosome. But Y-DNA is not the only type of DNA that can identify paternal relatives. Autosomal DNA is inherited from both maternal and paternal sides (both parents), so anyone doing autosomal testing will potentially get matches for both their maternal and paternal relatives, provided any of those relatives also do autosomal testing at the same company.

        Having your daughter DNA tested, or transferring to other companies, won't help with finding Dano's father. But for the matches she shares with Dano, you can identify them as being on her paternal side. It doesn't help to find Dano's father because only half of her DNA is from Dano (which is about 25% from Dano's father, 25% from his mother), while Dano has more of his father's DNA than he passed to her. She will match people on Dano's paternal side, but not as many as Dano will match on that side. It is more important and helpful for Dano to transfer to, or test at, all the other companies.
        • If other known relatives have tested at any of the companies that either Dano or his daughter have also done testing, you might be able to use them to see which matches are in common with them. Dano's daughter will match some of the same people that Dano does, but not all, since she only has half of his DNA. If Dano only knows his maternal relatives who have done an autosomal DNA test (such as the half niece and half nephew on his maternal side - they would be best, over the half grand niece and half grand nephew), then you can take note of the shared matches he has with them. Dano's daughter should share some of the same DNA segments with those half-relatives as Dano does, since they are close relatives; it may be the same size segments, but more likely will be fewer and smaller segments than Dano shares with them.
        • Unless Dano's mother and father were related to some degree, or had similar ancestry (such as if they were 3rd cousins, or if both had ancestors from the same places), then you might be able to figure out Dano's father's background based on information the matches provide in their trees or profiles.
        • Look at the locations that Dano's matches show for their ancestors, and compare with the known places for Dano's mother and her ancestors. Something may stand out, if the ancestors of Dano's parents came from noticeably different areas. If Dano has a lot of matches with origins from a place that Dano's mother's ancestors don't share, then those origin places may be for his father, especially it shows up for a lot of Dano's matches.
        • Does Dano have a family tree at FTDNA? If there are any of his known maternal relatives who have done the Family Finder test, such as a close cousin or aunt/uncle, you could link them to their place in Dano's family tree. This is called the Family Matching system, and will then sort his Family Finder match list and put any matches who also match the now-linked maternal relative into a separate "Maternal" tab, as well as to put a red/pink female icon with their name. Maybe those maternal half-niece, etc. relatives could transfer from Ancestry to FTDNA, and you could link them.This will at least filter some of the maternal matches, so some of those that remain unmarked might be paternal relatives. Do this also with any paternal relatives (if you know of any, and are sure they had the same unknown father). Even one will help sort Dano's matches into a paternal tab and a blue male icon with their name. Then check the trees and profiles of any shared matches with the paternal relative.
        • You will need to use everything you know, however little, about Dano's father to help identify the paternal matches. If you know anything about the unknown father's background, where he lived when Dano was conceived, etc. it will help. Any estimated as close or immediate autosomal matches to Dano who are not related on Dano's maternal side should be checked out first (estimated 1st to 2nd cousins, siblings, aunts/uncles, grandparents). You might consider checking out DNA Detectives, DNAadoption, or other search angels who might help figure out the mystery.
        • Has Dano done any Y-DNA testing, such as a Y-DNA 37 marker test? If so, what do the matches show? Are there a lot of matches with one surname (might have alternate spellings), or a couple of predominant surnames? Y-DNA might be a good place to narrow down his father's surname, or original surname if the father changed it.
        Some companies label the X chromosome as #23 in the list of chromosomes in your raw data file. Other companies will show it as "X." I don't think it is officially known as Chromosome 23, however. Just be aware of the different names when you check for it in the raw data files. 23andMe has that name because they test Chromosomes 1-22 plus the X chromosome, for a total of 23 chromosomes (as do the others, but 23andMe used it in their company name).

        FTDNA started a new sale for "DNA Day" today, which goes through April 26th. It includes Family Finder, Y-DNA, and mtDNA tests at sale pricing.
        Last edited by KATM; 19 April 2021, 03:40 PM.

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        • #5
          Thank you so much, I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into this. From what I understand now, the matches our daughter does not share with Dano may be more significant, and once her results are through she will transfer to FTDNA and MyHeritage to find what we can as Dano has already transferred to these companies and also Gedmatch.

          I have asked Dano's half-nephew and half-niece if they will transfer their dna to the other companies, however they have not done so yet, and as they live in Australia it is difficult to keep the topic open, but I am ever hopeful.

          Dano has done a Y111 test here at FTDNA, and has a Y67 match with a gd of 2, and also a Y37 match with a gd of 1. I have been in touch with these matches who have both sent me their STR's so that I can see the difference in the markers. The 65/67 match differences are between Y26-37, at markers DYS576 and DYS570, a change of one on each marker.
          The Y37 match difference is on the same panel at marker DYS570 with a difference of one on this marker. Both men have the same surname, although they do not appear to be recently related, and also have two STR differences between each other.

          In respect of the DNA Detectives, I have actually recently joined the group, however, Dano is a bit reluctant to put his info out there and we are mindful of the people he matches on YDNA. They have been so helpful, in particular the Y67 match, who is still researching military records from WW2 for Dano, and we would not want to break any confidence he has in us or bring him unwelcome attention. Until we can eliminate him and any of his family I don't want to do anything that might upset the goodwill and assistance he has been so kindly giving. I have considered asking him to upgrade to Y111, but his sample is from 2016, so I don't know how viable it would still be, and I'm not sure that he would be willing to take a new test even if we paid for it, I think his family thought it a bad idea at the time he did it anyway.

          Dano has a tree on FTDNA, but not being sure of who has what relationship with him it's difficult to add people that we don't personally know of, but we will keep looking and checking matches, who knows where it will lead.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dano View Post
            Thank you so much, I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into this. From what I understand now, the matches our daughter does not share with Dano may be more significant, and once her results are through she will transfer to FTDNA and MyHeritage to find what we can as Dano has already transferred to these companies and also Gedmatch.
            You're welcome.
            The matches that your daughter does not share with Dano should be on her maternal side, related to you and your ancestors. They will not be significant for finding Dano's paternal relatives.

            I have asked Dano's half-nephew and half-niece if they will transfer their dna to the other companies, however they have not done so yet, and as they live in Australia it is difficult to keep the topic open, but I am ever hopeful.
            They seem to be children of a sibling of Dano's, with the same mother. Are they sympathetic about finding Dano's father? You never know, one day they may show up in one of Dano's match lists at the other companies.

            Dano has done a Y111 test here at FTDNA, and has a Y67 match with a gd of 2, and also a Y37 match with a gd of 1. I have been in touch with these matches who have both sent me their STR's so that I can see the difference in the markers. The 65/67 match differences are between Y26-37, at markers DYS576 and DYS570, a change of one on each marker.
            The Y37 match difference is on the same panel at marker DYS570 with a difference of one on this marker. Both men have the same surname, although they do not appear to be recently related, and also have two STR differences between each other.
            Has either of the Y-DNA matches (Y-37 or Y-67) done the Family Finder test as well? You should be able to check for that by seeing if "FF" appears in the line below the match's name in the Y-DNA match list. It's interesting that both of these men having the same surname. You can be on the lookout for that surname, to see if it turns up in your Family Finder matches, too.
            I don't know enough to judge if there is anything interesting about the specific markers where there are differences with these two matches. In respect to how Dano might be related to these two matches, you may want to check the charts on these two pages in the FTDNA Learning Center:If either of these matches eventually upgrades to Y-111, and the genetic distances are no more than 5, they still would be considered as "related" (at 5 differences, it also says "7th cousins or closer"), so it all depends upon how far back the common ancestor is.

            In respect of the DNA Detectives, I have actually recently joined the group, however, Dano is a bit reluctant to put his info out there and we are mindful of the people he matches on YDNA. They have been so helpful, in particular the Y67 match, who is still researching military records from WW2 for Dano, and we would not want to break any confidence he has in us or bring him unwelcome attention. Until we can eliminate him and any of his family I don't want to do anything that might upset the goodwill and assistance he has been so kindly giving. I have considered asking him to upgrade to Y111, but his sample is from 2016, so I don't know how viable it would still be, and I'm not sure that he would be willing to take a new test even if we paid for it, I think his family thought it a bad idea at the time he did it anyway.
            It seems best to go slow right now with the Y-67 match. If you think the Y-67 match eventually may be interested in doing an upgrade, here are two considerations:
            1. I'd suggest having him do the Big Y-700, vs. the Y-111. I say this because the 111 markers are included in the Big Y-700, and the latter would be the last test he would need to do. Dano could do it as well. It's more expensive than updating to Y-111, yes, but worth thinking about. Probably the best sale is the winter Holiday Sale, or perhaps for Y-DNA in June, for Father's Day.
            2. I have had two experiences doing upgrades for elderly men: one had done three tests (FF, Y-67, Y-111) and his remaining sample was insufficient to do Big Y. The other had more testing done, including mtDNA FullSequence and several Y-DNA tests, even the original Big Y, and surprisingly the lab was able to do an upgrade to Big Y-700, which many times needs a fresh sample; the lab used the DNA still available in the first vial originally submitted in 2012! They didn't have to retrieve a vial from frozen storage. My point here is that it all depends upon the quality of the sample, and also that a 2016 sample may not be too old. FTDNA will store samples for 25 years, although it's debatable if any particular sample would be usable after that long.
            Dano has a tree on FTDNA, but not being sure of who has what relationship with him it's difficult to add people that we don't personally know of, but we will keep looking and checking matches, who knows where it will lead.
            Understood. Here's hoping that the half-niece and/or half-nephew will transfer to FTDNA, or another person will do a FF test at FTDNA who you can confirm as a known relative.
            Last edited by KATM; 20 April 2021, 09:59 AM.

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            • #7
              The Y37 match shows the FF sign against his name, but he does not match Dano in the Family Finder list of matches. He also gave me his printed family tree which I have researched exhaustively, but not found anywhere there could be a link to Dano. He actually also has tested on Ancestry but does not match on there either.

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              • #8
                You have been diligent and are making progress, even if it doesn't seem like it. Keep on with the Y-67 match, and see if he can find anything to help. I hope that his half-niece and half-nephew will transfer, and that also will help you to some degree (even if just by eliminating some other matches by identifying them as maternal).

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