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My full blood Irish grandfathers ancestry results

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  • #16
    Originally posted by okie1086 View Post
    Is there a significant genetic different between Ireland and Great Britian? Also I take it that Great Britian represents Scotland as well as England and Wales?
    FamilyTreeDNA doesn't make a distinction between Irish and Great Britain - it is all one category called British Isles.

    The "Irish" category on Ancestry includes Scotland and Wales, much to the displeasure of some people who identify and Scottish or Welsh.

    The people who came to Ireland over the centuries had to get there somehow from somewhere, and in doing so they picked up a few genes on the way and also left a few behind. Those genes could come from north, south or east of Ireland, but the Irish sea would have been the easier sea to cross. Once they hit the Atlantic coast they could go no further back then.

    A relative who manages several kits feels that Cork can be especially difficult geneticly as it had an English military presence for centuries.
    Last edited by ltd-jean-pull; 26 December 2016, 01:57 PM.

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    • #17
      All my great grandparents were born in Ireland but, as has been said, you will usually run out of records in the early 1800s. So the best I could get us around 16 oldest ancestors. Of the 9 I do know at the moment two of them are Anglo-Norman.

      One is Pentony, which is presumed to go back to France:
      http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Pentony

      The other is Comerford and while it is not possible to connect my family with the earlier Comerfords on paper (I am working on the genetic side) the family has been traced back to Wiltshire and probably goes back to France too, although it can't currently be proved:
      http://www.patrickcomerford.com/2015...ntangling.html
      http://comerfordfamily.blogspot.co.uk/

      You'd expect the most Anglo-Norman mixing in the East and this is also the area that Oliver Cromwell invaded. You should also look into The Pale and the system of plantations that were put in place, as well as land grabbed by various lords:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale

      Before that you have the strong links between Scotland and Ireland, the Viking invasions and the "Black Irish" (now thought to be much earlier Iberian input than the Armada).

      Given the various waves of people colonising Ireland, to greater or lesser extents, it is difficult to know what you'd look for in Irish DNA, especially through an autosomal test looking at your origins (focusing on the Y DNA of specific Irish surnames would be more enlightening as you could tease out the specific origins that are the threads on the rich tapestry of Irish origins):
      https://www.sott.net/article/263587-...iously-thought
      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35179269

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      • #18
        I think your best bet is to focus on your close autosomal DNA matches, and I'd be inclined to see who is available for Y-DNA matches on the lines that matter to you.

        Unfortunately Ancestry doesn't have a chromosome browser, but FamilyTreeDNA is going to be able to do transfers from Ancestry soon. In the meantime you could also transfer (no cost involved) to Gedmatch.

        In my experience with Irish lines it's not quite as simple as Catholic=indigenous and Protestant=Plantation. I've been surprised by how much intermarriage occurred.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ltd-jean-pull View Post
          In my experience with Irish lines it's not quite as simple as Catholic=indigenous and Protestant=Plantation. I've been surprised by how much intermarriage occurred.
          Marriage rate between Catholics and Protestants under 1% in 1911

          New study finds that mixed marriages were very rare prior to first World War

          http://www.irishtimes.com/news/socia...1911-1.2084775

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          • #20
            That's an interesting study Kevin.

            It's based on census returns in 1911.

            "The study established that in 1911 Protestants outside Ulster had fewer opportunities to meet a partner of their religion and thus were more likely to compensate by marrying out. “The opposite was true in Ulster, a result with far-reaching consequences, just at a time when competing Orange and green nationalisms began to heighten fears and tensions and resulted in violent spillovers,” Dr Fernihough said."

            We certainly had intermarriage happening in our family in the late 18th century and some of the children whose baptisms I have found in the Catholic parish records had a Protestant sponsor (1790s). I HAD thought this branch was Protestant until the parish records went online last year.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ltd-jean-pull View Post
              That's an interesting study Kevin.

              It's based on census returns in 1911.

              "The study established that in 1911 Protestants outside Ulster had fewer opportunities to meet a partner of their religion and thus were more likely to compensate by marrying out. “The opposite was true in Ulster, a result with far-reaching consequences, just at a time when competing Orange and green nationalisms began to heighten fears and tensions and resulted in violent spillovers,” Dr Fernihough said."

              We certainly had intermarriage happening in our family in the late 18th century and some of the children whose baptisms I have found in the Catholic parish records had a Protestant sponsor (1790s). I HAD thought this branch was Protestant until the parish records went online last year.
              But as the study shows, intermarriage was very, very rare before 1911. Just because something happened in your family does not mean that it was a common occurrence.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by CMMcDonald View Post
                Also, were his any of his ancestors Protestants? Those are more likely to be Plantation, no matter the county. In other words, English.
                Do you mean Palatinates? They are Protestants who originated in Germany and became refugees who went to different countries. I have a family line who went to a planatation near Limerick, Ireland area and they came to Canada. Huge families so lots of dna matches.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by kevinduffy View Post
                  But as the study shows, intermarriage was very, very rare before 1911. Just because something happened in your family does not mean that it was a common occurrence.
                  The study found that there were very few married couples on the 1911 census who said they were of different religions. We can't really know for sure what happened before that. Let's not forget that until the early 1800s laws regarding land ownership and jobs favoured Protestants, and so some people converted for that reason.

                  I don't think the divisions were always as marked but by 1922 there were deep divisions.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by kevinduffy View Post
                    But as the study shows, intermarriage was very, very rare before 1911. Just because something happened in your family does not mean that it was a common occurrence.
                    I think it was one of those things that was always happening at some level, even if in the background. I mean, really, when you look at your own matches, do you not find massive numbers of Protestant Americans of colonial descent with no known RC Irish ancestry?

                    About 40% of my heritage comes from Catholic immigrants from Ireland in the 1850s. By pure coincidence, my mother and father both seem to have had ancestors from the Westport/Newport areas of Co. Mayo. A lot of them in turn had come from other parts of the country, and were part of a much wider familial network that included Presbyterians, Quakers and CoI as well as RC people.

                    I even found a 'bill of discovery' related to these families. It turns out, bills of discovery were actually used most often by friends or members of the extended family to preempt other Penal Laws, like limits on property ownership and inheritance.

                    I think most historians would probably support Kerby Miller's analysis of pre-20th century confessional relations as highly variable by location and class. All across the country middle class people probably had relationships that spanned the religious divide. Segregation was probably only (nearly) total at the extremes, among the desperately poor or land owning magnates and the highly charged mid-Ulster communities where the proportions of Catholics and Protestants were nearly equal.

                    Attitudes could change a lot over time, as well. I seem to recall Miller quoting some 1798 rebel from north Antrim exiled to the Carolinas being shocked and disappointed by news he received from home about the deterioration of interconfessional relations after the rebellion's failure. From my own research into that area, I know of very many families with both Protestant and Catholic ancestry.

                    For Catholic families, who mostly have very few conventional resources available to them, their Protestant links are very useful for research.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ltd-jean-pull View Post
                      The study found that there were very few married couples on the 1911 census who said they were of different religions. We can't really know for sure what happened before that. Let's not forget that until the early 1800s laws regarding land ownership and jobs favoured Protestants, and so some people converted for that reason.

                      I don't think the divisions were always as marked but by 1922 there were deep divisions.
                      I very much doubt that the world was more liberal in 1811 and 1711 than it was in 1911. If you have evidence of significant intermarriage in Ireland then please post it. For people who converted to Protestantism, they would likely have ended up intermarrying with the British Protestants meaning that their descendants would have had Planter ancestry.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by kevinduffy View Post
                        I very much doubt that the world was more liberal in 1811 and 1711 than it was in 1911. If you have evidence of significant intermarriage in Ireland then please post it. For people who converted to Protestantism, they would likely have ended up intermarrying with the British Protestants meaning that their descendants would have had Planter ancestry.
                        Like I already said, and you conveniently ignored, look at your own matches. There's your evidence. I don't know anyone of RC Irish ancestry without scads of matches with Protestants.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lmnapl View Post
                          Do you mean Palatinates? They are Protestants who originated in Germany and became refugees who went to different countries. I have a family line who went to a planatation near Limerick, Ireland area and they came to Canada. Huge families so lots of dna matches.
                          The old graves at Rathkeale have an interesting mix of people. Perhaps this area was somewhat different from other parts of Ireland and the divisions were less pronounced there than elsewhere.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by kevinduffy View Post
                            I very much doubt that the world was more liberal in 1811 and 1711 than it was in 1911. If you have evidence of significant intermarriage in Ireland then please post it. For people who converted to Protestantism, they would likely have ended up intermarrying with the British Protestants meaning that their descendants would have had Planter ancestry.
                            Until I started researching the family I thought that Protestants and Catholics in Ireland lived alongside each other but rarely had children with each other. I'm not claiming to be an expert on Irish history (or any history for that matter).

                            As I said, I've found records of baptisms from around 1800 in the Catholic parish records where a sponsor is not Catholic. Presumably the sponsor was present at this baptism, as there is no mention of by proxy.

                            Would the fact that Douglas Hyde's Catholic friends could not attend his funeral service not suggest that things were actually less liberal 100 years ago than 200 years ago?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Frederator View Post
                              I don't know anyone of RC Irish ancestry without scads of matches with Protestants.
                              I have 100% Irish ancestry and all my ancestors are Catholic, as far as I can tell (although it is possible that I am descended from Black Tom Ormond, there is no way to demonstrate this through the records). My wife was half Irish and they were all Catholic (again, as far as I could tell).

                              They were all poor and rural (mainly from southern and eastern counties), that might make a difference.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ltd-jean-pull View Post
                                Until I started researching the family I thought that Protestants and Catholics in Ireland lived alongside each other but rarely had children with each other. I'm not claiming to be an expert on Irish history (or any history for that matter).

                                As I said, I've found records of baptisms from around 1800 in the Catholic parish records where a sponsor is not Catholic. Presumably the sponsor was present at this baptism, as there is no mention of by proxy.

                                Would the fact that Douglas Hyde's Catholic friends could not attend his funeral service not suggest that things were actually less liberal 100 years ago than 200 years ago?
                                Do you any evidence for significant levels of intermarriage in Ireland over the last few hundred years? Are any of these records of baptisms online so that others can review them?

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