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  • Questions About Sephardic Jewish DNA

    What would a person expect to see in their Family Finder "my Origins" results if they had Sephardic Jewish ancestry?

    Should a person of Sephardic Jewish ancestry expect to find a good deal of "matches" with Ashkenazic Jews?

    My grandmother (she is from Ecuador) said she knew for a fact that her grandfather was a Jew; though I know that that alone does not make a person halakhically Jewish, if Conversos kept close together in some cases it may have been that some of my other family members were Conversos.

  • #2
    Originally posted by raquel View Post
    What would a person expect to see in their Family Finder "my Origins" results if they had Sephardic Jewish ancestry?
    In MyOrigins: Ashkenazi Diaspora, North Africa, and Southern Europe often appear. Apparently also Asia Minor and Eastern Middle East.

    In 23andMe: Ashkenazi, North African, Middle Eastern, Italian, Iberian.

    Should a person of Sephardic Jewish ancestry expect to find a good deal of "matches" with Ashkenazic Jews?
    Yes. This happens routinely, both inside FTDNA and Gedmatch, for those among Hispanics from Puerto Rico, Mexico, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Spain who partially descend from Sephardim who converted to Catholicism. So far I have confirmed that for 4 Puerto Ricans and dozens of Mexicans, among others. It also happens with Sephardic Jews from Morocco, Syria, Greece, Turkey, and Bulgaria. The reason it's possible to find Ashkenazim matching Sephardim within the autosomal timeframe is explained by the settlement patterns in my article "The Sephardim of Galitzian Poland and Environs" in the September 2015 issue of Toronto's Shem Tov newsletter, going to press within the next week.

    I have never yet seen an example of that happening in South American Hispanics but it's possible. Some Converso descendants are said to live in Peru. I've also never seen a Sicilian or French Canadian matching Ashkenazim because of shared Sephardic ancestry, despite rumors that they have some Converso ancestry. Filipino and Brazilian autosomal matches to Ashkenazim are rare.

    My grandmother (she is from Ecuador) said she knew for a fact that her grandfather was a Jew; though I know that that alone does not make a person halakhically Jewish
    But if it's true, it would make her an Israelite, a Hebrew, a Judean, a Sephardi. These ethnic terms don't need validation by a rabbi or congregation. Some of my confirmed-Sephardic Converso contacts with recent ancestry from Mexico and Puerto Rico have officially converted to Judaism and become religious Jews as well, but converting isn't a requirement as long as you avoid using the word "Jewish" as a self-identifier. Otherwise you will incur the wrath of members of practicing Jewish communities in places like Mexico City who jump into conversations about Conversos and are fond of telling people they aren't "really Jewish".
    Last edited by khazaria; 20 September 2015, 05:39 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by khazaria View Post
      The reason it's possible to find Ashkenazim matching Sephardim within the autosomal timeframe is explained by the settlement patterns in my article "The Sephardim of Galitzian Poland and Environs" in the September 2015 issue of Toronto's Shem Tov newsletter, going to press within the next week.
      Hallo Khazaria,

      your coming article sounds very interesting to me. I would like to read it :-) Do you think you can post a link to this forum, when it will be online?

      Thank you in advance,
      Petra

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Petra View Post
        your coming article sounds very interesting to me. I would like to read it :-) Do you think you can post a link to this forum, when it will be online?
        Everybody who wants to read it should send me a private message stating their email address. I'll probably start sending it out 5 days from now. Jgstoronto.ca archives all articles on their public site after a year or two.

        BTW, the above message should have read 5 Puerto Ricans. My father matches one of them. I also found a Portuguese Azorean matching my mother but his surnames are Portuguese and he doesn't descend from the Ashkenazim who settled in the Azores during World War II.

        Angela in eupedia.com's forum says she found non-Jewish Italians from a particular small town in Italy show tiny amounts of "Ashkenazi" DNA at 23andMe from an ancestor from centuries ago: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...re-from/page19
        Last edited by khazaria; 20 September 2015, 05:52 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by raquel View Post
          What would a person expect to see in their Family Finder "my Origins" results if they had Sephardic Jewish ancestry?

          Should a person of Sephardic Jewish ancestry expect to find a good deal of "matches" with Ashkenazic Jews?

          My grandmother (she is from Ecuador) said she knew for a fact that her grandfather was a Jew; though I know that that alone does not make a person halakhically Jewish, if Conversos kept close together in some cases it may have been that some of my other family members were Conversos.
          Did your grandmother mention Jewish or Sephardic. Some South American Jews are of Ashkenazi origin, e.g. the TV comic 'Don Francisco' (his real name is Yiddish)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by khazaria View Post
            In MyOrigins: Ashkenazi Diaspora, North Africa, and Southern Europe often appear. Apparently also Asia Minor and Eastern Middle East.

            I have never yet seen an example of that happening in South American Hispanics but it's possible. Some Converso descendants are said to live in Peru. I've also never seen a Sicilian or French Canadian matching Ashkenazim because of shared Sephardic ancestry, despite rumors that they have some Converso ancestry. Filipino and Brazilian autosomal matches to Ashkenazim are rare.
            Khazaria, I am from one region, in Brazil, populated by Conversos(Seridó and state of Paraíba).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephar...se_Jews#Brazil

            MyOrigins give me 36% of Southern Europe, 8% of Asia Minor and 4% of North África.

            I've got a Ashkenazi match from Poland, and he is 100% of Ashkenazi Diaspora. We share 9 segments with a total of 25.62cM's, and 8.81 cM's longest block. What is interesting is we have a common match with name Alacon, and, I descend of Converso Daniel Gomez de Alarcon.

            I would like some thought about it.

            Thanks!

            Natan ben Abraham

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
              Did your grandmother mention Jewish or Sephardic. Some South American Jews are of Ashkenazi origin, e.g. the TV comic 'Don Francisco' (his real name is Yiddish)
              I don't know but I assumed he would have been Sephardic.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by khazaria View Post
                In MyOrigins: Ashkenazi Diaspora, North Africa, and Southern Europe often appear. Apparently also Asia Minor and Eastern Middle East.

                In 23andMe: Ashkenazi, North African, Middle Eastern, Italian, Iberian.



                Yes. This happens routinely, both inside FTDNA and Gedmatch, for those among Hispanics from Puerto Rico, Mexico, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Spain who partially descend from Sephardim who converted to Catholicism. So far I have confirmed that for 4 Puerto Ricans and dozens of Mexicans, among others. It also happens with Sephardic Jews from Morocco, Syria, Greece, Turkey, and Bulgaria. The reason it's possible to find Ashkenazim matching Sephardim within the autosomal timeframe is explained by the settlement patterns in my article "The Sephardim of Galitzian Poland and Environs" in the September 2015 issue of Toronto's Shem Tov newsletter, going to press within the next week.

                I have never yet seen an example of that happening in South American Hispanics but it's possible. Some Converso descendants are said to live in Peru. I've also never seen a Sicilian or French Canadian matching Ashkenazim because of shared Sephardic ancestry, despite rumors that they have some Converso ancestry. Filipino and Brazilian autosomal matches to Ashkenazim are rare.



                But if it's true, it would make her an Israelite, a Hebrew, a Judean, a Sephardi. These ethnic terms don't need validation by a rabbi or congregation. Some of my confirmed-Sephardic Converso contacts with recent ancestry from Mexico and Puerto Rico have officially converted to Judaism and become religious Jews as well, but converting isn't a requirement as long as you avoid using the word "Jewish" as a self-identifier. Otherwise you will incur the wrath of members of practicing Jewish communities in places like Mexico City who jump into conversations about Conversos and are fond of telling people they aren't "really Jewish".
                At present, we don't show many matches at all (29); among them, two show some ancestrally Ashkenazic surnames and others which could be Ashkenazic:

                1. Shared cM: 34.05


                2. Shared cM: 25.72



                Strangely, when I brought the raw data to gedmatch it predicted the eyes would be light (green-blue-grey) but I don't think I've seen anyone on my mother's side of the family with light eyes. I wonder if there's been some mistake. I've read people on this site saying that their results had varied by as much as 13 percentage points (with one service, they were 1% of a certain people-group; with this they were 14% - that is a huge variation).

                I just want to know the truth about this matter.
                Last edited by Darren; 25 June 2017, 11:35 PM. Reason: surnames removed per request

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by raquel View Post
                  At present, we don't show many matches at all (29); among them, two show some ancestrally Ashkenazic surnames and others which could be Ashkenazic:

                  1. Shared cM: 34.05


                  2. Shared cM: 25.72



                  Strangely, when I brought the raw data to gedmatch it predicted the eyes would be light (green-blue-grey) but I don't think I've seen anyone on my mother's side of the family with light eyes. I wonder if there's been some mistake. I've read people on this site saying that their results had varied by as much as 13 percentage points (with one service, they were 1% of a certain people-group; with this they were 14% - that is a huge variation).

                  I just want to know the truth about this matter.
                  The first shared segment could be Ashkenazi or Sephardic. To complicate matters, some Sephardis migrated to eastern Europe
                  The second shared segment appears to be Sephardic. It would not be that unusual to have both Sephardic and Ashkenazi ancestry.
                  Last edited by Darren; 25 June 2017, 11:36 PM. Reason: surnames removed per request

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by winner View Post
                    I've got a Ashkenazi match from Poland, and he is 100% of Ashkenazi Diaspora. We share 9 segments with a total of 25.62cM's, and 8.81 cM's longest block. What is interesting is we have a common match with name Alacon, and, I descend of Converso Daniel Gomez de Alarcon.

                    I would like some thought about it.
                    Natan, I think this is very promising! Does the match named Alacon match both you and the Ashkenazi at the same location of the same chromosome?

                    Also, I match an Alarcon family from Mexico, but we don't know if the relationship came from their founding Alarcon ancestor or from another line.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by khazaria View Post
                      Natan, I think this is very promising! Does the match named Alacon match both you and the Ashkenazi at the same location of the same chromosome?

                      Also, I match an Alarcon family from Mexico, but we don't know if the relationship came from their founding Alarcon ancestor or from another line.
                      I think so. Please, look at that:
                      Alarcon
                      8 90192881 97874317 8.16 1695
                      8 120249958 122907189 4.14 600

                      Ashkenazi
                      8 94616982 101654425 8.81 1595

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                      • #12
                        As it turns out, winner and I match the same Mexican Alarcon family member. Perhaps we all (winner, I, and the two Alarcon families) have a common Jewish ancestor from Spain. Anyway, it's interesting to see genetic links between Brazil and Mexico.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by khazaria View Post
                          I've also never seen a Sicilian or French Canadian matching Ashkenazim because of shared Sephardic ancestry, despite rumors that they have some Converso ancestry.
                          Why Rumors? There is plenty of documents about the conversion of Jews due to pressure of the Holy Inquisition in Sicily and South Italy, as it was under the Spanish Kingdom in those times.
                          Anyway, I'm not jew but I guess that Ashkenazim are a jewish group among the other, not the only one and not the closest to the ancient mediterranean Jews. It's an intriguing topic, am I wrong?

                          Really I don't know for Canadian or others.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Minosse View Post
                            Why Rumors? There is plenty of documents about the conversion of Jews due to pressure of the Holy Inquisition in Sicily and South Italy, as it was under the Spanish Kingdom in those times.
                            Anyway, I'm not jew but I guess that Ashkenazim are a jewish group among the other, not the only one and not the closest to the ancient mediterranean Jews. It's an intriguing topic, am I wrong?

                            Really I don't know for Canadian or others.
                            Most Jews who remained in Spain, hid their identity. The same was true of Anusim. In most cases there are only hints of Jewish backgroud. The Forum has reports of current family conflict if a member searches for background.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                              Most Jews who remained in Spain, hid their identity. The same was true of Anusim. In most cases there are only hints of Jewish backgroud. The Forum has reports of current family conflict if a member searches for background.
                              I wonder what is the best way to confirm the status of Anusim after many centuries, which kind of DNA test works better?

                              Comment

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