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  • #46
    BINGO! and here is my answer:

    "If you order a Family Finder test now, the new Illumina microarray chip will be used. If you have already ordered the Family Finder test and have not yet received results, or received your results after February 1st, 2011, your test is run using the Illumina platform."


    Originally posted by Ann Turner View Post

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    • #47
      I've just signed up and ordered the Family Finder Conversion test.

      I wonder if we'll have to submit a new sample?

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      • #48
        New Sample?

        "I wonder if we'll have to submit a new sample? "

        According to the FAQs it is unlikely that you will have to provide a new sample. I'm sure they took this into account when deciding on the "pricing" for the conversion.

        So, unless you know your original sample gave them problems, I would say we're all good to go.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Kasandra View Post
          Done! I really hope this improves the error rate. It might not make a difference in the 'big overall scale' of things but it does matter when trying to compare 23andMe to FTDNA data. In fact, had they done this before the 23andMe sale I might not have bothered with 23andMe at all. There's still the SNP overlap issue of course. But if they add SNPs over time they can at least be competitive. Especially with 23 treating it's Genealogy customers like ugly bastards. I can't believe 23 threatened to pull the Ancestry Finder today because of the complaints about the service. (and no, it wasn't that AF was buggy it was an attempt to shut down complaints).
          Hmmm..that is not actually what I heard them say.. My feeling is that they are trying to resolve the Ashkenazi correction which surely FTDNA will also have to do as their database grows...someone told them they could NOT remove AF as the new subscriptions are for that but I believe they are for Relative Finder and the cousin matches.Ancestry Finder was always experimental AND had a large group of Beta testers.

          A lot of the angry talk at 23andme would NOT be tolerated here..Those of us here for years know that..

          That aside..I commend FTDNA for taking this large step forward..Those of us who have tested with the V3 chip would LOVE to be able to compare..I personally was assured by the "big guy" 3 times I would be able to upload and would be super thrilled to do that..and waited month after month..
          Congrats FTDNA..

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Kathleen Carrow View Post
            Hmmm..that is not actually what I heard them say.. My feeling is that they are trying to resolve the Ashkenazi correction which surely FTDNA will also have to do as their database grows...someone told them they could NOT remove AF as the new subscriptions are for that but I believe they are for Relative Finder and the cousin matches.Ancestry Finder was always experimental AND had a large group of Beta testers.

            A lot of the angry talk at 23andme would NOT be tolerated here..Those of us here for years know that..

            That aside..I commend FTDNA for taking this large step forward..Those of us who have tested with the V3 chip would LOVE to be able to compare..I personally was assured by the "big guy" 3 times I would be able to upload and would be super thrilled to do that..and waited month after month..
            Congrats FTDNA..
            Would I bring my 8 kits here for the nominal fee previously discussed? Sure would..

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Kathleen Carrow View Post
              Hmmm..that is not actually what I heard them say.. My feeling is that they are trying to resolve the Ashkenazi correction which surely FTDNA will also have to do as their database grows...
              I doubt they ever will need such a correction because their cutoff for shortest segment is longer than 23andme's, which is an excellent idea. This might eliminate the odd real matches for some people, but it will also prevent many very distant matches, with no hope of finding a paper trail, from clogging anyone's system.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Javelin View Post
                I doubt they ever will need such a correction because their cutoff for shortest segment is longer than 23andme's, which is an excellent idea. This might eliminate the odd real matches for some people, but it will also prevent many very distant matches, with no hope of finding a paper trail, from clogging anyone's system.
                Oh OK.. I thought I had seen a few people post that they were working on such a correction but had not yet made it operational..

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                • #53
                  I posted once that FTDNA has some ideas for Ashkenazi corrections..

                  They are not using a segment based system like 23andMe, and obviously not since FTDNA reports all the segments and requires more than one to make a match to begin with.

                  FTDNA has toyed with the idea of using PF data to influence Ashkenazi corrections. Nothing in place as of today.

                  .

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by mkdexter View Post
                    I posted once that FTDNA has some ideas for Ashkenazi corrections..

                    They are not using a segment based system like 23andMe, and obviously not since FTDNA reports all the segments and requires more than one to make a match to begin with.

                    FTDNA has toyed with the idea of using PF data to influence Ashkenazi corrections. Nothing in place as of today.

                    .
                    Thanks Matt.. I thought you had posted..

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Kathleen Carrow View Post
                      Hmmm..that is not actually what I heard them say.. My feeling is that they are trying to resolve the Ashkenazi correction which surely FTDNA will also have to do as their database grows...someone told them they could NOT remove AF as the new subscriptions are for that but I believe they are for Relative Finder and the cousin matches.Ancestry Finder was always experimental AND had a large group of Beta testers.

                      A lot of the angry talk at 23andme would NOT be tolerated here..Those of us here for years know that..

                      That aside..I commend FTDNA for taking this large step forward..Those of us who have tested with the V3 chip would LOVE to be able to compare..I personally was assured by the "big guy" 3 times I would be able to upload and would be super thrilled to do that..and waited month after month..
                      Congrats FTDNA..
                      I didn't say they threatened to cut RF, I said AF. And the whole system is so freaking clunky and poorly assembled it's shocking. AF shouldn't be 'beta' it should be all integrated into RF so you don't have to go looking to see under the skirts so to speak. They have those other add ons because they didn't bother to upgrade it to one, easy-to-use, program. I agree that some folks may be extremely angry, but why is that? It's because they are frustrated in a way that no one here is. I'm not saying either service is perfect, the additional SNPs and larger database at 23 are valuable. But at the end of the day I have 12 more matches there than here. And a bunch of anonymous numbers that do me no good at all. I don't regret testing there because I value those matches, their customer service reps are usually, but not always nice. But their priorities suck rocks. They don't even try to balance the priorities and they don't understand the motivations of the genealogy side of things. They were CALLUS in their replies to me as if they had no idea why it would be upsetting not to be able to contact a second cousin or to lose a third cousin or have my 5, 6, and 7th closest matches revert to distant. They just said, oh well someone else will match you later. I felt the same as if someone said, "we're going to shoot your puppy but don't worry, we'll get you another one eventually."

                      I believe that FTDNA, if they have to do something about AJ matches, will give the customer options to apply the filter or not because they can't afford to torque off their genealogy folks.

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                      • #56
                        ^ Agreed. FTDNA is focused on genealogy and is receptive to customers. 23andme had promise but is showing signs of getting out of genealogy to focus more or less totally on the medical side (that's my take on the "one version" and the monthly subscription, anyway).

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                        • #57
                          As of a minute ago, 6 of the 10 folks with kits at the LowerDelmarva group have joined..

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                          • #58
                            AJ and other corrections

                            I wonder if someone could explain the proposed correction for Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. I realize that in general Ashkenazim are related somewhat similar to 4th or 5th cousins. (I think that is true of any population that breeds within itself for geographic or cultural reasons). I seem to have some Ashkenazi ancestors myself and that makes the triangulation lists long. It also adds to the match lists.

                            I have something similar with other ancestries. I have lots of early Massachusetts Bay ancestors and 8th cousins and 10th cousins match and we can find the link because of the great paper research over the centuries. I have something similar in colonial New Amsterdam, and in Germans from the Palatinate, and maybe in Scandinavia. For New Amsterdam there are good records and I found real cousins. Germany is tougher.

                            I think in the long run we will all have too many matches to handle without a software management system. Whether that comes from FTDNA or elsewhere will be interesting to see. Is it that AJ and other close groups have more matches and run into the too many to handle limit earlier?

                            Right now I look at the total cM and use its relation to the longest segment to categorize my matches into tree folk or cloud folk. The tree folk have some logical relation between total cM and longest that falls along the main spectrum expected as both reduce with more generations from the common ancestor. The cloud folk show up on a different line - they tend to have lots more total cM than fits the longest segment. I match them with a 8 cM longest segment and 40-80 total cM, for example. I like the cloud matches too, although it is unlikely I will build the step by step paper trail to connect many of them. They are sort of like haplogroups, telling me something more general about my ancestory. And sometimes they may get me to an area. I now have several matches that point to Lviv, Ukraine and I have an odd family name that occurs there.

                            So, is the AJ correction just to reduce the matches that must be handled, or is there more to it? I can imagine general filters that can be set on total cM or total to longest ratios.

                            And I wonder about those of us of varied ancestry. If the filter is not something we apply ourselves we may lose matches on on line while filtering out cloud connections on another.

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                            • #59
                              In general terms correcting for Ashkenazi Jewish means adjusting the prediction so that a predicted cousinship range is shown as more distant that it was before the adjustment.

                              Remember FTDNA does not adjust for this right now nor is there anything indicating they will in the future. They've just considered some ideas for research and for making predictions more accurate but have not committed to any special AJ adjusting method in the future.

                              What companies are trying to compensate for are cases when most of the predictions are calculated too close by compounded segments or large sums of ancestral DNA. What it will eventually come down to is that every case is going to be different so there will need to be a method used to figure out which cases need which adjustment.
                              Last edited by mkdexter; 10 February 2011, 07:13 PM.

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                              • #60
                                That's the crux of the issue. Currently 23andme applies an algorithm to all people with over a certain number of matching segments which artificially distances known close relatives. Unfortunately, the Relative Finder system also has a limit to sharers, and appears to favour many short segments over single longer ones (your cloud matches vs. tree matches).

                                In practice, people with many matching segments may be entirely Ashkenazi, or entirely Mennonite, or entirely early colonial US, or 1/4 Ashkenazi 1/4 Finnish 1/2 Quebecois. Whatever the origin, it's important matches be treated as reciprocal. All other things being equal, any two people who share a 12 cM match share a pretty recent ancestor, regardless of their ethnic group and of the number of 6 cM segments you add to that. One 12 cM match is worth any number of 6 cM matches. That's something FTDNA gets -- 23andme, not.
                                Last edited by Javelin; 10 February 2011, 07:47 PM. Reason: message truncated

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