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  • Triangulation results

    I have 5 people that match on the same segments on chromosome 10 for at least 11.62 cM. It is me, my father, my fathers 1st cousin, and two men, A and B, that through paper trail are 3rd cousins 1R to each other. I'm trying to find out how these two men are related to my family, in order to find an unknown ggg-grandfather, C.


    * The first man, A, shares 53-56 cM; and longest block 26-27 with us three. Estimated relationship on FF is 2nd to 4th cousin.


    * The second man, B, shares 26, 34 and 55 cM; and longest block 11-12 with us three. Estimated relationship on FF is 3rd to 5th cousin.


    My fathers mothers fathers fathers father is unknown. My gg-grandfather was born in 1834. So his unknown father might have been born sometime before 1816.

    Man A and B are descended from a man, D, born in 1785, in that same geographical area (The Swedish Finn forest in Värmland) where my gg-grandfather was born. This man was married and his last child was born in 1833. He was away from home at times in 1833-1835.

    How can I prove that D is my ggg-grandfather, C, with the information that I've got?
    Last edited by Carolina; 3rd October 2017, 02:09 PM.

  • #2
    Where can I find someone to help me out with this?

    Comment


    • #3
      Triangulation Results

      I don't think you can"prove" your theory with autosomal DNA results, largely due to the imprecision of the autosomal relationship estimates. For example, Blaine Bettinger's crowd-sourcing project shows that 4th cousins can share no detectable DNA at all, or as much as 120 cM, with the distribution of shared results forming roughly a bell-shaped curve (a great deal of deviation around the mean).

      Y-DNA testing could possibly settle the issue, if you can locate a direct male-line descendant in your father's maternal grandfather and compare his Y results to both A and B (who would also need Y-testing).

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by hfp43 View Post
        I don't think you can"prove" your theory with autosomal DNA results, largely due to the imprecision of the autosomal relationship estimates. For example, Blaine Bettinger's crowd-sourcing project shows that 4th cousins can share no detectable DNA at all, or as much as 120 cM, with the distribution of shared results forming roughly a bell-shaped curve (a great deal of deviation around the mean).

        Y-DNA testing could possibly settle the issue, if you can locate a direct male-line descendant in your father's maternal grandfather and compare his Y results to both A and B (who would also need Y-testing).
        Thank you so much! I did compare Y-DNA of my fathers male cousin with that of man A. My fathers cousin was I-M253. Man A had N-M232. They are both direct male descendants of D.

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        • #5
          Triangulation Results

          Perhaps I am missing something, but if they are both direct male-line descendants of D they should share the same haplogroup - presumably I-M253 or N-M232.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by hfp43 View Post
            Perhaps I am missing something, but if they are both direct male-line descendants of D they should share the same haplogroup - presumably I-M253 or N-M232.
            Yes, that's why I am confused. There is another DNA-relative from the same paper trail tree that also shares the same haplogroup I-M253. He is descended from D's grandfather but is not a direct male descendant.

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            • #7
              Triangulation Results

              I-M253 is very common in Sweden, while N-M232 is common in Finland and the Baltics.

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              • #8
                Thank you! I didn't know that. Your answers are very helpful.

                My father and I both have about 7 % Finnish genes - most probably on his mothers side looking at the paper trail tree. The strange thing is that my fathers cousin (maternal side) does not have Finnish genes at all. The three of us are related to the Finnish people that settled in Sweden though.

                The DNA-relative with the same haplogroup is a very distant match through Y-DNA - we can't even tell how far back.

                The two men, A and B; the one with the same haplogroup (and one of his sisters), and two women (mother and daughter) are all descended from D's grandfather. This makes three different branches from one MRCA couple for these people. Is it at least possible that I am descended from the same MRCA's?

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                • #9
                  Triangulation Results

                  It's possible. But again, those two men who have different Y-haplogroups cannot possibly be direct male-line descendants of the same male ancestor. Can't happen.

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                  • #10
                    I have been trying to find four unknown ggg-grandparents (parents of a married couple) with DNA for 7 years. Apparently it can't be done according to the responses I get on this forum (when I get any response at all!), contrary to FTDNA's claims when they first introduced Family Finder. And this is despite the fact that I'm looking for people of colonial American descent when 3 quarters of my tree is recent French and German immigrants and one eighth is New England and the eighth with the missing ggg-grandparents is almost certainly NC and VA.

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                    • #11
                      Perhaps I am not following you either, but have you done a one-to-one at Gedmatch to determine that EACH of the people in the TG is related to each other person?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by marietta View Post
                        Perhaps I am not following you either, but have you done a one-to-one at Gedmatch to determine that EACH of the people in the TG is related to each other person?
                        No, since they haven't uploaded it there, and I can't get hold of some of them. The original five I posted here all match each other when you use the "in common with" tool on FF. On paper trail these descendants of the same MRCA are 5th-6th cousins with each other, except for A and B who are closer.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hfp43 View Post
                          It's possible. But again, those two men who have different Y-haplogroups cannot possibly be direct male-line descendants of the same male ancestor. Can't happen.
                          Thanks. Then if I am descended from D's grandparents, it must be through a daughter that had a son.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MoberlyDrake View Post
                            I have been trying to find four unknown ggg-grandparents (parents of a married couple) with DNA for 7 years. Apparently it can't be done according to the responses I get on this forum (when I get any response at all!), contrary to FTDNA's claims when they first introduced Family Finder. And this is despite the fact that I'm looking for people of colonial American descent when 3 quarters of my tree is recent French and German immigrants and one eighth is New England and the eighth with the missing ggg-grandparents is almost certainly NC and VA.
                            I do wish it was easier. I have only been doing the research on this with DNA since 2015, on and off, learning as I go. I might just take a break and read more into DNA genealogy and then go back to it.

                            I managed to solve finding an adoptees parents (he was born in 1921) through very few paper clues, and the rest was DNA. He was lucky to have some 3rd cousins on gedmatch. Otherwise I would not have been able to find the parents.

                            When the missing parent is born at around 1800, finding "close" matches is hard. With people who were isolated and with close relation marriages, the estimated relationships get closer, which makes my case more difficult.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              ggg grandfather connection

                              Unfortunately only one small piece of DNA won't solve you problem. The truth is you will either have to pay someone to dig into the paper records or do it yourself. In some special cases where good genealogical paper trails are found the result can be quite pleasing. Then again most of these cases end in utter frustration and may never be solved.
                              Don't give up though...lay it aside and wait awhile. No telling who you will match tomorrow who will supply the missing information and all will clear up.

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