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Middle East Jewish PF, Part II

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Zaru View Post
    Any idea why there is so much Lumbee?
    Lumbee is only showing up in the MDLP results, not at all in Dodecad. I don't know much about MDLP, since I mostly use Dodecad and sometimes Eurogenes. It must be some quirk of MDLP, especially since it's giving such a high level for Lumbee.

    The Lumbee are an Indian tribe from North Carolina. Unless you have some American colonial ancestry from the Carolinas or southern Virginia, I would ignore it.

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    • #17
      MMaddi: Just curious. Why do you choose to use Dodecade primarily? Many thanks.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Zaru View Post
        Perhaps there is no correlation, but my Y-Ht fits most closely with the Eastern European groups, more specifically the "R1b Jewish" project. With this, I am separating the "Jewish" from the "Middle Eastern" geographically. When I saw "Adygei" turn up in my PF, it made sense.
        We have an NPE in my father's direct Y-line, and we're trying to figure it out.

        Also, my mother is half African American, which is mixed with a family named "Jubar". There is a district in Damascus named "Jobar" where many Syrian Jews live. So my thinking was that perhaps it could have come from this lineage (his name was Abraham Jubar). But there is a lineage of Jouberts who came from France (but could have been M.E. prior to that). They were "dark complected" according to their military records.
        What is your connection to Jewish R1b. Are most of your matches Jewish. There were Jews in Antwerp but not in Jutland. R1b entered the Jewish population from European sources.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by josh w. View Post
          ... R1b entered the Jewish population from European sources.
          From what I have heard from the R-ish front, most R1b subclades found in Jewish population groups do not date to a common ancestry with European R1b lines within the past 2,000 years.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Rebekah Canada View Post
            From what I have heard from the R-ish front, most R1b subclades found in Jewish population groups do not date to a common ancestry with European R1b lines within the past 2,000 years.
            I should have given a more sophisticated answer. The origins of Jewish R1b are complex, probably dependent on the subclade. Research suggests that a common Jewish J1b pattern may have Near Eastern origins. R1b L21 is a minor Jewish subclade. Little is known about the origins of Jewish R1b L21. R1b L21 itself appears to have European origins.
            Last edited by josh w.; 18 January 2014, 12:13 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by marietta View Post
              MMaddi: Just curious. Why do you choose to use Dodecade primarily? Many thanks.
              Of the four admixture calculators on gedmatch, it seems to give the most reliable and informative results for those with southern European, including Italian, ancestry. My ancestry is fully Italian, so it works best for me and others in the Sicily Project.

              Also, I think that Dienekes, the developer of the Dodecad Project, is a first class citizen scientist. I check his blog - http://dienekes.blogspot.com/ - every day for new postings, which gives links to new studies and offer his commentary on them.

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              • #22
                MMaddi: And, would you please share with us your preference of admixture utilities at Gedmatch for those of us with primarily northern European heritage?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by marietta View Post
                  MMaddi: And, would you please share with us your preference of admixture utilities at Gedmatch for those of us with primarily northern European heritage?
                  I wouldn't know, since I judge the performance of the calculators by what I've seen from my use of them. Since my ancestry is not northern European at all, I can't make an informed judgement.

                  Maybe someone who does have experience with the calculators' performance for those with northern European ancestry can answer your question.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                    I should have given a more sophisticated answer. The origins of Jewish R1b are complex, probably dependent on the subclade. Research suggests that a common Jewish J1b pattern may have Near Eastern origins. R1b L21 is a minor Jewish subclade. Little is known about the origins of Jewish R1b L21. R1b L21 itself appears to have European origins.
                    Research indicates that a Cohen line R1b L23 L51 probably began in the Middle East. However this does not mean that the majority of Jewish R1b subclades are Middle Eastern. The most recent expert opinion (Harry Ostrer, 'Legacy', 2012) concluded that Jewish R1b is mainly European

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                      ...R1b L21 itself appears to have European origins.
                      Hi,

                      They used to say that about R1b itself. Now the academics too are coming to the reality that R1b crashed the European party repeatedly in the Bronze age.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                        What is your connection to Jewish R1b. Are most of your matches Jewish. There were Jews in Antwerp but not in Jutland. R1b entered the Jewish population from European sources.
                        Josh,

                        My documented lineage goes back into Antwerp and into Jutland, but I am of the belief that I carry an NPE. My connections to any culture/ethnicity/anthropology on my paternal side is quite limited due to that possible NPE.

                        I have an Ht that bears roughly 35% off modal allele values @67 markers, and as a result, my matches at any stage have been very small. In fact, I have no matches beyond 12 markers (and those are very limited as well, I think that I have about 4 with a gd=0, 15=1, 20=2).

                        I have been forced to really analyse alllele values at each specific locus and try to identify specific patterns. What I have noticed over time, my Ht had a more "north eastern" aspect to it. Not your traditional BI trajectory. As a result, I joined a lot of geographic projects who had a high frequency of specific allele values at specific loci (one of them is my 393=12, and 449=32, but not limited only to these). For R1b, 449=32 has a far higher frequency in North Eastern European haplotypes then anywhere else, and 393=12, has a really high frequency (respective to the overall low frequency in R1b) in the Jewish R1b project.

                        In the absence of proof, I have been reconciled to operating in this fashion. Upon receiving a photograph of my great grandfather last year, I noticed something about his phenotype (which I am fully aware of the pros and cons of judging an ethnicity by phenotype) that "looked" eastern european, almost Asian. I know many people from all parts of Russia (by nature of living in NYC), and his appearance seemed to be quite similar to some Lithuanians that I know.

                        My family (although I was born in Italy) all come from Vermont, so the thought of my father's very old Vermont family being anything other than Anglo mix was a foreign concept to me. But then I saw how my Ht was lining up (without matching) and it gave me cause to wonder about the possibilities. Then I discovered a few months ago, that a small group of Lithuanian Jews (they were lumped into this category, but probably from different parts of Eastern Europe) had settled in the three towns that they lived in, around 1810- that was the year that my 3x great grandfather Reuben was born, according to the census report, and his death record- there is no birth record for him.

                        So although I do not have any Jewish matches (I also do not have any Catholic ones that I am aware of ;0)), there is a possibility that I am in the process of identifying my potential NPE. The PF, Dodecad, et al, all appear to be telling me something more as well. Though may not be "Jewish"- it appears that I do have an admix with high frequency from that area as well as Scandinavia and the Mediterranean.

                        How's that for brevity?
                        Last edited by Zaru; 18 January 2014, 05:23 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Zaru View Post
                          Josh,

                          ...

                          So although I do not have any Jewish matches (I also do not have any Catholic ones that I am aware of ;0)), there is a possibility that I am in the process of identifying my potential NPE. The PF, Dodecad, et al, all appear to be telling me something more as well. Though may not be "Jewish"- it appears that I do have an admix with high frequency from that area as well as Scandinavia and the Mediterranean.

                          How's that for brevity?
                          Hi,

                          I presume that by now you have gotten (PC Term) your Y-DNA12 matches to upgrade?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Rebekah Canada View Post
                            Hi,

                            I presume that by now you have gotten (PC Term) your Y-DNA12 matches to upgrade?
                            One was my brother, and we are a [email protected], one other was of German ancestry and we fizzled out @25, the other two (one was Portuguese, the other, Italian) did not respond and did not increase their resolution.

                            On the flip side, I had my maternal first cousin (only living y-descendant to my African American Grandfather) test @ 37 markers, and we were a gd=2 @37. My thinking was, "this could be huge for all African Americans", and the gentleman refused to respond to the emails. I say refused, because it was a business email address that he gave, and I Googled him to see if he was still at his law firm, and he was. Pseudo-stalking? Meh. I never followed through...

                            Why test if you do not wish to make the connections??

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