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  • Population Finder - Jewish vs. Greek

    Hi - I transferred Ancestry.com DNA results over to FamilyTreeDNA and the Population Finder gave me a result of:

    Continent (Subcontinent) Population Percentage Margin of Error
    Middle East (Jewish) Jewish 100.00% ±0.01%

    At Ancestry.com I got:

    Southern European
    36%
    Middle Eastern
    35%
    Persian/Turkish/Caucasus
    28%
    Uncertain
    1%

    Ethnically, I am Greek. Why the 100% Jewish result with such a small margin of error? I've researched regarding how Population Finder works, but found nothing related to Greeks, and wondered if we shared similar DNA.

    If anyone can help, I would appreciate it!
    Thanks!

  • #2
    Offhand, I would guess that your Ancestry results are far more accurate. (I've tested with FTDNA, Ancestry, and 23 and Me.) At least from our family's experience here (including my elderly parents) 23 and Me gives the most accurate ancestry results, then Ancestry and then FTDNA.

    If you have no known Jewish ancestry on either side of the family -- and are most definitely associated historically with Greek people, populations associated with Greece should be present. I would also pay close attention to the ethnic mix of your distant cousin matches.

    Comment


    • #3
      tralfaz unfortunately Population Finder is awful, and in my humble opinion seems to be the worst of them on the market. Hopefully you have been able to upload to Gedmatch? I know for now they are on hold again for taking new uploads because they have been swamped. They have excellent admixture tools there.

      Population Finder here has no Greek reference population. They only have Romania for Southeast Europe. For Southern Europe they have Tuscan, Italian, and Sardinia. Their Tuscan and Italian samples read more as a Northern Italian instead of Southern Italian. Many Southern Italians and Sicilians will show Middle Eastern results too. It is because of old migration patterns to the area.

      Are your actual matches on both sites showing anyone with Greek ancestry? If not maybe Italian, Albanian, Malta, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Turkey or Cyprus? mixedkid is correct about checking out your matches ethnic mix. My mom is half Southern Italian/Albanian, and we both get matches that are Greek.

      Comment


      • #4
        My BF's grandmother is (as far as I can tell at this juncture) 100% Sicilian - I have traced her ancestry back to the mid-1700s in Sicily - and Population Finder gave her 86% Jewish, 12% "Europe" (Orcadian, Spanish, Tuscan, French). Now, given the history of Sicily, it's entirely possible and in fact somewhat likely that she has Turkish, Greek, North African and/or Norman French in her background, but I find that high a percentage of Jewish to be rather unlikely. She doesn't have many matches for FF but the ones she does have are largely from Malta or Sicily or have no country listed but are clearly Italian surnames. If she were actually Jewish, wouldn't she have a gazillion matches due to the endogamy? Or does that only apply to Ashkenazim? I guess in theory she could be Sephardic in the way distant past.

        I have tried various Admix tools at Gedmatch but many of them are also giving me Jewish - for example Dodecad v3 gives her the following breakdown (top percentages only):

        # Population Percent
        1 Mediterranean 35.66
        2 West_Asian 26.05
        3 West_European 18.3
        4 Southwest_Asian 10.08
        5 Northwest_African 4.56

        And the Oracle seems to think her percentages are closest to Ashkenazi Jewish, with Sicilian/Italian not even entering the picture until the fourth result:

        # Population (source) Distance
        1 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 3.95
        2 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 4.8
        3 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 7.34
        4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.32
        5 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.46
        6 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.8
        7 S_Italian (Dodecad) 12.03
        8 O_Italian (Dodecad) 12.16

        Interested to see how the thread interprets the above. I am still waiting for my BF's results. He is half Greek/Turkish on his mother's side, so that should be interesting.

        Comment


        • #5
          No, she's not AJ at all. It's just that Sicilians seem to mirror Jewish people, genetically speaking. The matches she gets clearly point to her heritage. If she had an actual AJ %, she would have hundreds of Jewish matches.

          Comment


          • #6
            Try Gedmatch J-Test

            @Brooks
            Just for comparison you might want to run her kit through the Eurogenes project using the JTest calculator with Oracle which is primarily used for testing Ashkenazi ancestry. You might find that interesting.

            Comment


            • #7
              Have you tried...

              @Brookes
              If you haven't already, you might try running the Admix Eurogenes project test @ Gedmatch. Select Oracle and J-Test as the calculator. You might find it interesting and it may help you to dig deeper and find out what populations are being used.
              If you want to compare the kit in question to mine M081145. I am 50% Ashkenazi and my results may give you some base line for comparison

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KenWolf View Post
                @Brookes
                If you haven't already, you might try running the Admix Eurogenes project test @ Gedmatch. Select Oracle and J-Test as the calculator. You might find it interesting and it may help you to dig deeper and find out what populations are being used.
                If you want to compare the kit in question to mine M081145. I am 50% Ashkenazi and my results may give you some base line for comparison
                Hey Ken,

                Great idea. I think I had already done this at some point, but I didn't save the results, so I ran it again.

                Here's what Jtest Oracle-x gave for her Admix Results:

                # Population Percent
                1 SOUTH_BALTIC 2.81
                2 EAST_EURO 1.70
                3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.43
                4 ATLANTIC 10.25
                5 WEST_MED 19.21
                6 ASHKENAZI 5.97
                7 EAST_MED 30.42
                8 WEST_ASIAN 9.76
                9 MIDDLE_EASTERN 8.36
                10 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.83
                11 EAST_AFRICAN 0.62
                12 EAST_ASIAN 0.00
                13 SIBERIAN 0.00
                14 WEST_AFRICAN 0.64


                Pct. Calc. Option 2

                1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 60.21%
                2 Druze 11.16%
                3 Sardinian 8.31%
                4 PT 5.98%
                5 Tuscan 5.32%
                6 GR 3.80%
                7 Samaritan 2.99%
                8 IR 2.10%
                9 Assyrian 0.12%
                10 North_Italian 0.00%

                This seems by far the closest any of the calculators have gotten. Does anyone know what PT and IR stand for?
                Last edited by brookes; 10th July 2013, 02:56 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Compare that JTest Oracle-X result to that of my brother-in-law, with known Ashkenazi ancestry of about 75%, the remainder being English & Belgian:

                  Admix Results:
                  # Population Percent
                  1 SOUTH_BALTIC 6.19
                  2 EAST_EURO 2.75
                  3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 13.01
                  4 ATLANTIC 14.79
                  5 WEST_MED 8.33
                  6 ASHKENAZI 23.25
                  7 EAST_MED 20.17
                  8 WEST_ASIAN 5.97
                  9 MIDDLE_EASTERN 4.40
                  10 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.00
                  11 EAST_AFRICAN 0.14
                  12 EAST_ASIAN 0.96
                  13 SIBERIAN 0.04
                  14 WEST_AFRICAN 0.00


                  Pct. Calc. Option 2
                  1 AJ 57.12%
                  2 Scottish 15.67%
                  3 Cornish 11.10%
                  4 Tuscan 9.36%
                  5 Druze 6.55%
                  6 Mandean 0.15%
                  7 GR 0.04%
                  8 Assyrian 0.00%
                  9 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 0.00%
                  10 Kurdish 0.00%

                  I assume AJ stands for Ashkenazi Jewish. It's underestimating the percentage of Ashkenazi for him significantly. What's GR stand for, does anyone know? I'm going to try Eurotest on both BiL and BF's gm and see what it says.

                  ETA: Ken I just ran JTest on yours and it also under-represents your AJ percentage, 30% as opposed to your known 50% ancestry. So maybe this is normal.
                  Last edited by brookes; 10th July 2013, 03:10 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mixedkid View Post
                    Offhand, I would guess that your Ancestry results are far more accurate. (I've tested with FTDNA, Ancestry, and 23 and Me.) At least from our family's experience here (including my elderly parents) 23 and Me gives the most accurate ancestry results, then Ancestry and then FTDNA.

                    If you have no known Jewish ancestry on either side of the family -- and are most definitely associated historically with Greek people, populations associated with Greece should be present. I would also pay close attention to the ethnic mix of your distant cousin matches.
                    Thank you for your reply. I know of a great-grandmother with a maiden name of Abrahams - that's my only possibility that there is some Jewish ancestry. i was hoping to determine if this Jewish ancestry was a true possibility. The Ancestry.com test said a good percentage was "middle eastern", but nothing more specific. Thanks - I may try 23 and Me.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Táltos View Post
                      tralfaz unfortunately Population Finder is awful, and in my humble opinion seems to be the worst of them on the market. Hopefully you have been able to upload to Gedmatch? I know for now they are on hold again for taking new uploads because they have been swamped. They have excellent admixture tools there.

                      Population Finder here has no Greek reference population. They only have Romania for Southeast Europe. For Southern Europe they have Tuscan, Italian, and Sardinia. Their Tuscan and Italian samples read more as a Northern Italian instead of Southern Italian. Many Southern Italians and Sicilians will show Middle Eastern results too. It is because of old migration patterns to the area.

                      Are your actual matches on both sites showing anyone with Greek ancestry? If not maybe Italian, Albanian, Malta, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Turkey or Cyprus? mixedkid is correct about checking out your matches ethnic mix. My mom is half Southern Italian/Albanian, and we both get matches that are Greek.
                      I have registered with GedMatch but was unable to upload, as they are indeed swamped. I was only given 3 matches (all Remote Cousin) here at FamilyTreeDNA and they show no Greek, Jewish, Italian, Albanian, or anything, other than Irish, English and Croatian - none of which fit my

                      Southern European
                      36%
                      Middle Eastern
                      35%
                      Persian/Turkish/Caucasus
                      28%
                      Uncertain
                      1%

                      I'm not really having much luck with FamilyTreeDNA, unfortunately.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        GedMatch J-Test

                        @Brookes

                        Run my kit again and when completed click "Oracle" and scroll down to Mixed Population Sharing. The first entry #1 shows 50% AJ and 50% NL (Netherlands).
                        I think other populations get into the act also, such as West-Med, East-Med.

                        If you add those percentages to the Ashkenazi then you will get about 50%.

                        Oh, to answer your country abbreviations:
                        PT = Portugal
                        IR = Iran
                        GR = Greece

                        taken from: http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/cty...m#.Ud3ERTuzc2w
                        Last edited by KenWolf; 10th July 2013, 03:43 PM. Reason: Add the GR abbreviation

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by brookes View Post
                          Hey Ken,

                          Great idea. I think I had already done this at some point, but I didn't save the results, so I ran it again.

                          Here's what Jtest Oracle-x gave for her Admix Results:

                          # Population Percent
                          1 SOUTH_BALTIC 2.81
                          2 EAST_EURO 1.70
                          3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.43
                          4 ATLANTIC 10.25
                          5 WEST_MED 19.21
                          6 ASHKENAZI 5.97
                          7 EAST_MED 30.42
                          8 WEST_ASIAN 9.76
                          9 MIDDLE_EASTERN 8.36
                          10 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.83
                          11 EAST_AFRICAN 0.62
                          12 EAST_ASIAN 0.00
                          13 SIBERIAN 0.00
                          14 WEST_AFRICAN 0.64


                          Pct. Calc. Option 2

                          1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 60.21%
                          2 Druze 11.16%
                          3 Sardinian 8.31%
                          4 PT 5.98%
                          5 Tuscan 5.32%
                          6 GR 3.80%
                          7 Samaritan 2.99%
                          8 IR 2.10%
                          9 Assyrian 0.12%
                          10 North_Italian 0.00%

                          This seems by far the closest any of the calculators have gotten. Does anyone know what PT and IR stand for?
                          PT is Portugal and, I believe, IR is Iran.

                          Regarding the AJ percentages in Jtest, they're somewhat misleading. Most northern Europeans get a few percent and Sicilians/southern Italians get 5-10%. It seems as if that's significant, but it's not indicative of Ashkenazi ancestry.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                            PT is Portugal and, I believe, IR is Iran.

                            Regarding the AJ percentages in Jtest, they're somewhat misleading. Most northern Europeans get a few percent and Sicilians/southern Italians get 5-10%. It seems as if that's significant, but it's not indicative of Ashkenazi ancestry.
                            Yes, my mother (100% colonial with zero Jewish ancestry AFAIK) got 2.29% AJ:

                            Populations:
                            0 Unable to determine 0.02%
                            1 English 44.81%
                            2 NL 16.33%
                            3 Orcadian 8.48%
                            4 DK 8.19%
                            5 IE 6.89%
                            6 Kalash 6.38%
                            7 NO 6.20%
                            8 FR 1.76%
                            9 Lezgin 0.94%
                            10 Komi 0.01%

                            I assume NL is Netherlands, IE is Ireland and FR is French. What are DK, NO, Kalash, Lezgin, and Komi?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's my understanding that people who are fully Ashkenazi will have an Ashkenazi percentage of 25% to 35%. Going back to the early 19th century, my ancestors were all Ashkenazi. Here are my Jtest results:

                              Admix Results
                              # Population Percent
                              1 ASHKENAZI 31.91
                              2 EAST_MED 22.15
                              3 WEST_MED 11.49
                              4 MIDDLE_EASTERN 10.08
                              5 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 7.23
                              6 WEST_ASIAN 5.84
                              7 ATLANTIC 4.03
                              8 EAST_EURO 3.42
                              9 SOUTH_BALTIC 2.05
                              10 SIBERIAN 1.04
                              11 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.75

                              Single Population Sharing
                              # Population (source) Distance
                              1 AJ 5.02
                              2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 24.7
                              3 GR 26.16
                              4 Tuscan 28.57
                              5 North_Italian 31.5
                              6 RO 31.85
                              7 TR 32.63
                              8 Serbian 33.64
                              9 IQ 33.87
                              10 Samaritan 34.33
                              11 Mandean 34.59
                              12 PT 34.65
                              13 Assyrian 34.66
                              14 Armenian 35.47
                              15 Moroccan 35.85
                              16 Algerian 36.17
                              17 Kurdish 36.44
                              18 ES 36.48
                              19 IR 36.87
                              20 Druze 36.9

                              With a few exceptions, most of my closely matching populations cluster along the shores of the Mediterranean. I suspect that this may reflect shared ancestry among these population groups going back as far as the Roman Empire; according to some estimates, 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish at some point in time.

                              In order to test the accuracy of a Jtest prediction of Ashkenazi ancestry, it may be possible to use GEDmatch's chromosome painting function to identify the segments deemed by Jtest to be Ashkenazi, then to use GEDmatch's "Find people who match with you on a specific segment function" to see whether you have substantial matches with people on those segments.

                              Jeff Wexler

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