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  • #61
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    People in Israel speak Hebrew they may also speak Arabic. The Jewish teachings are in both languages. The Ashkenazi speak Yiddish which is a cross between German and Hebrew. The Sephardic (Spanish Jews) speak Ladino which is a cross between Spanish and Hebrew.

    Being that the Jews permit for conversion means "Anyone" can convert to Judaism though certain rituals preformed through what they call Kosher Mikvah or through briss. You dont have to be born to a Jewish mother to be a Jew, you can convert. Were any of your ancestors converts? I dont know about the marker you are talking about but maybe someone else can answer you about this specific marker. Non Jews can match Jews on DNA especially if one descends from someone who converted to Judaism.

    Sorry if I am asking something you have already posted but leaving out your BGA do you actually have cousin matches to other people who claim Ashkenazi. If you do try to follow their paper trial to see if it leads you to any of your ancestors
    You don't need to be sorry to me....I come into this forum with no nationalistic, religious of culture issues...I don't care, if they find out I am an eskimo or whatever....I am here to find my truth. They say we are all out of african and black ....so

    In regards to cousin matches for ashkenazi , I thought the jew part was due to my mother grand-mothers, but I found out she was germanic via church records. The indicators of my chromoses saying it was a female line also stated it was from the south-baltic area.
    All my cousin matches as far back as 5th cousin has no ashkenazi. ...It's just one of these that over time it might appear as apparently its an old line . Somehwer between my line of travels from the north caucasus to the baltic sea
    I have no issue in finding out I have jewish alleles...Its just another marker to direct me to find the truth.

    See other thread for my link to information of creator for this Jtest....it might solve all our disagreements

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Bartot View Post
      You don't need to be sorry to me....I come into this forum with no nationalistic, religious of culture issues...I don't care, if they find out I am an eskimo or whatever....I am here to find my truth. They say we are all out of african and black ....so

      In regards to cousin matches for ashkenazi , I thought the jew part was due to my mother grand-mothers, but I found out she was germanic via church records. The indicators of my chromoses saying it was a female line also stated it was from the south-baltic area.
      All my cousin matches as far back as 5th cousin has no ashkenazi. ...It's just one of these that over time it might appear as apparently its an old line . Somehwer between my line of travels from the north caucasus to the baltic sea
      I have no issue in finding out I have jewish alleles...Its just another marker to direct me to find the truth.

      See other thread for my link to information of creator for this Jtest....it might solve all our disagreements

      Not saying this happened but an example of what could happen in general when it comes to converts to Judaism.

      lets say you have 2 sisters. Both raised Catholic. One sister remains true to the church while the other sister converts to Judaism. The sister who remains true to the church raises her children catholic. The other sister who converted to Judaism raises her children Jewish. The Children of both sisters are 1st cousins yet one line is is Catholic and one line Jewish yet they are related by blood. Their DNA will show they are related yet each line is practicing a different religion.

      This could also go for two Jewish sisters where one sister converted to the church and one stayed Jewish. Their children would still be related practicing 2 different religions.
      Last edited by Yaffa; 9 November 2012, 07:31 PM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
        Not saying this happened but an example of what could happen in general when it comes to converts to Judaism.

        lets say you have 2 sisters. Both raised Catholic. One sister remains true to the church while the other sister converts to Judaism. The sister who remains true to the church raises her children catholic. The other sister who converted to Judaism raises her children Jewish. The Children of both sisters are 1st cousins yet one line is is Catholic and one line Jewish yet they are related by blood. Their DNA will show they are related yet each line is practicing a different religion.

        This could also go for two Jewish sisters where one sister converted to the church and one stayed Jewish. Their children would still be related practicing 2 different religions.
        your thought process is confusing, whats this got to do with Jewish alleles.?

        Admixtures results take no heed on religion, culture, language, nationality its basically a breeding thing, a mixing of genes. clearly as stated in the test papers, the alleles which are part of the jewish makeup are also in other non-jewish cultures/tribes

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Bartot View Post
          your thought process is confusing, whats this got to do with Jewish alleles.?

          Admixtures results take no heed on religion, culture, language, nationality its basically a breeding thing, a mixing of genes. clearly as stated in the test papers, the alleles which are part of the jewish makeup are also in other non-jewish cultures/tribes
          Judaism is a religion. So people who are Jewish can share same DNA with those who are not Jewish. All religions permit for conversion from one religion to another. Why these alleles in the test papers your talking about are not just shared by people who are Jewish but also belong to others that are not Jewish

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
            Judaism is a religion. So people who are Jewish can share same DNA with those who are not Jewish. All religions permit for conversion from one religion to another. Why these alleles in the test papers your talking about are not just shared by people who are Jewish but also belong to others that are not Jewish
            Judaism is not just a religion. That is what is not being understood. There are respected papers written on the subject. How can a majority of Ashkenazi Jews share a very specific haplogroup that can be traced back thousands of years to 3 specific women in the Middle East (K1a1b1a) see Behar's article- she is the Chief DNA Mitochondrial Scientist at FtDNA. https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

            I never expected to be dealing with this on a DNA forum.

            Do you understand that we (Jews) have to undergo genetic testing on unborn children for certain genetic (key word) diseases that are specific to Jews? Do you know that Jewish women have a higher incidence of carrying the BRAC 1 & 2 mutation for Breast cancer, certain pancreatic cancers and liver/colon cancers? ALL Genetically related. We also have a greater rate of lactose intolerance. I could go on. Do you think there are doctors who specialize in Catholic or Protestant genetic diseases? There are doctors (geneticists) who specialize in diseases for Jews and it is based on their ethnicity not religion. I don't know how much clearer I can be. If a child is born of 2 Jewish parents and put up for adoption not knowing his/her ethnicity, etc he/she will still have the same risk of suffering from those genetic diseases specific to Jews. Because he/she has Jewish genes.

            AB

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            • #66
              True Indeed

              Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
              Judaism is a religion. So people who are Jewish can share same DNA with those who are not Jewish. All religions permit for conversion from one religion to another. Why these alleles in the test papers your talking about are not just shared by people who are Jewish but also belong to others that are not Jewish
              True indeed Yaffa!!!!!

              Steve

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
                Judaism is not just a religion. That is what is not being understood. There are respected papers written on the subject. How can a majority of Ashkenazi Jews share a very specific haplogroup that can be traced back thousands of years to 3 specific women in the Middle East (K1a1b1a) see Behar's article- she is the Chief DNA Mitochondrial Scientist at FtDNA. https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

                I never expected to be dealing with this on a DNA forum.

                Do you understand that we (Jews) have to undergo genetic testing on unborn children for certain genetic (key word) diseases that are specific to Jews? Do you know that Jewish women have a higher incidence of carrying the BRAC 1 & 2 mutation for Breast cancer, certain pancreatic cancers and liver/colon cancers? ALL Genetically related. We also have a greater rate of lactose intolerance. I could go on. Do you think there are doctors who specialize in Catholic or Protestant genetic diseases? There are doctors (geneticists) who specialize in diseases for Jews and it is based on their ethnicity not religion. I don't know how much clearer I can be. If a child is born of 2 Jewish parents and put up for adoption not knowing his/her ethnicity, etc he/she will still have the same risk of suffering from those genetic diseases specific to Jews. Because he/she has Jewish genes.

                AB
                i am tired of this conversation, please read below from the creator of jtest and decide for yourself

                http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2012/0...est-files.html

                Comment


                • #68
                  Understanding The DNA Molecule

                  Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
                  Judaism is not just a religion. That is what is not being understood. There are respected papers written on the subject. How can a majority of Ashkenazi Jews share a very specific haplogroup that can be traced back thousands of years to 3 specific women in the Middle East (K1a1b1a) see Behar's article- she is the Chief DNA Mitochondrial Scientist at FtDNA. https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

                  I never expected to be dealing with this on a DNA forum.

                  Do you understand that we (Jews) have to undergo genetic testing on unborn children for certain genetic (key word) diseases that are specific to Jews? Do you know that Jewish women have a higher incidence of carrying the BRAC 1 & 2 mutation for Breast cancer, certain pancreatic cancers and liver/colon cancers? ALL Genetically related. We also have a greater rate of lactose intolerance. I could go on. Do you think there are doctors who specialize in Catholic or Protestant genetic diseases? There are doctors (geneticists) who specialize in diseases for Jews and it is based on their ethnicity not religion. I don't know how much clearer I can be. If a child is born of 2 Jewish parents and put up for adoption not knowing his/her ethnicity, etc he/she will still have the same risk of suffering from those genetic diseases specific to Jews. Because he/she has Jewish genes.

                  AB
                  A fundamental concept to grasp and understand is that the DNA molecule contains and defines information that is passed on from parent to child. This information takes the form of inheritable traits such as the color of your eyes, skin, etc. From a genealogical perspective - DNA shows if two or more people share a common ancestor and thus are related via that shared common ancestor.

                  An individual's religious or ethnic designation, name, geographical location, etc are forms of information that is NOT encoded within nor definable by the DNA molecule. When scientists look at genes, haplogroups, etc - they are looking at the frequency by which those genes, haplogroups, etc occur in different populations. From those frequencies, people tend to make inferences about a person's ethnic composition, religion etc. However those inferences can be incorrect.

                  For example - my 2nd cousin is considered, via social norms, as African-American. The E1B1A haplogroup has a high frequency in African-American men. Yet my cousin's Y-DNA haplogroup is R1a1a - which has a high frequency in European men. By the logic present above, one would conclude that by looking at the haplogroup (E1B1A) - a person's ethnic composition could be definitively established. But as one can see - it simply is not possible to do because the DNA molecule does NOT define nor store that type of information.

                  The important concept to understand is that a religion is a socially derived construct, of which it cannot be reflected within the DNA molecule.

                  Hope that helps

                  Steve
                  Last edited by shandy4473; 9 November 2012, 11:50 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    In the Torah there are 12 tribes of Israel. They still exist today. The Jewish PEOPLE. The 12 tribes are an ETHNIC group. They are descent of Avraham the Chaldean. Their seed lives on today, the Jewish PEOPLE. I'm sorry it's hard for some of you guys to grasp that.

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                    • #70
                      The Tribe of Judah originated out of the Middle East and N. Africa. Those who have haplogroups from that area may descend from the tribes originators. If halpogroups on DNA do not come from that area more than likely those people descend from converts of long ago or maybe even more recent. Just saying.

                      @mollyblum "We Jews". You do know my poster name is Hebrew right???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I was adopted had kosher Miikvah. My family that raised me some of them in Auschwitz. Many killed or experimented on by Yosef Mengle himself. Why because Yosef thought Jew was a race of people.

                      The Jews carry certain diseases because in Europe they were all very religious. The Torah states a Jew is not supposed t marry a non Jew. They would not marry outside their faith or from other gene pool.This forced Jews to marry some of their own family and why there is genetic disease. Reformed and Conservative are fairly new practices where Jews have now in modern times married outside their gene pool

                      Jew is a religion that has culture with their religion. I grew up in a Kosher home
                      Last edited by Yaffa; 10 November 2012, 04:46 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        @Taz85, if you watched the last Biran Sykes DNA video for Nat Geo, maybe you can give an explanation why a Muslim and a Jew share same father line. The Jewish teachings are both in ancient Hebrew and Ancient Aramaic. Im sure you will find a lot more matching if more non-Jews from the Middle Eastern area test. Meaning so few people have DNA tested compared to all the people in the world that the full answer is not out there

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                        • #72
                          @mollyblum In my previous post to you I should have also mentioned my cousin is an OBGYN at Mount Siani Hospital. He is Jewish knows all about genetics that run in the Jewish people and its because of Jews marrying into their own family lines. Because the Torah states a Jew is not supposed to marry a non Jew (meaning religion not race) . The very religious will still do this and some wont marry anyone who is a recent convert. Because family married family 2nd cousins, 3rd cousins over again it caused genetic disease in the Jewish people.

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                          • #73
                            I can see it's difficult for some people to grasp that religious groups can become DNA-linked ethnic-type groups over time through long inbreeding, but this is not restricted just to Ashkenazi Jewish people -- you will also find it in Anabaptist, Assyrian (Chaldean), Mandean, Parsi, and other people who come from small religions who tend to marry within their own community.

                            You will also find similar things in non-religious groups that have gone through bottlenecks or rapid expansions from a few founders, for example, New France or Finns. If you have ancestry from Acadia or Quebec, or Finland, you will probably be related to the same people 8-10 different ways hundreds of years ago.

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                            • #74
                              @Javelin very true and I have also seen inbreeding in people in general who live in isolated areas where there is not much of a gene pool they can marry out side of.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
                                The Tribe of Judah originated out of the Middle East and N. Africa. Those who have haplogroups from that area may descend from the tribes originators. If halpogroups on DNA do not come from that area more than likely those people descend from converts of long ago or maybe even more recent. Just saying.

                                @mollyblum "We Jews". You do know my poster name is Hebrew right???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I was adopted had kosher Miikvah. My family that raised me some of them in Auschwitz. Many killed or experimented on by Yosef Mengle himself. Why because Yosef thought Jew was a race of people.

                                The Jews carry certain diseases because in Europe they were all very religious. The Torah states a Jew is not supposed t marry a non Jew. They would not marry outside their faith or from other gene pool.This forced Jews to marry some of their own family and why there is genetic disease. Reformed and Conservative are fairly new practices where Jews have now in modern times married outside their gene pool

                                Jew is a religion that has culture with their religion. I grew up in a Kosher home
                                I was saying we Jews to denote that I was not speaking from a place of non-involvement. It had absolutely nothing to do with you. I find it odd that you would say that your name is Hebrew as this crazy argument rolls around not identifying Jews by religion or ethnicity via name (as they may be non- Hebrew Jews? Or Christian Israelities). But aside from that I never assume by someone's screen name their ethnicity. It could be based on a character, abbreviation, etc. Jaffe could be short for Jaffetopolis and you could be Greek for all I know.

                                Did anyone look at the Behar's article? The Chief DNA Mitochondrial scientist for FTDna? It clearly discuss Ashkenazi Jewish origins and is a scientific article accepted by respected scientists in the field. It is not someone building a program with quirks and flaws.

                                Although I do appreciate the builders if these models. I just seems that there is a flaw differentiating between certain Mediterranean populations and Ashkenazi Jewish ones.

                                AB

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