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  • #31
    Originally posted by 1796 View Post
    Javelin thanks so much for sharing. Very helpful for one think about how to understand their results.
    My pleasure 1796.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Javelin View Post
      This makes sense as there is ancestry from the Bordeaux area, which was ancient Aquitania. Apparently the Aquitanian language was very more or less the same as Basque. There are no Basque surnames in the family tree, but that doesn't really matter: if the Bordelais were living in the same place for thousands of years, they will still be genetically similar to Basques.
      And in the early middle-ages Aquitanian was English owned for many many years, so if you are English you would fall under #12.
      As for me and knowing my history I would be either 5, 6 or 13

      You need to also realise in some societies, surnames where forcibly changed due to laws or not changed due to law. ( a practice of first son gets all, other sons change of name).
      As for women, as an example in northern-italy to the present day, women are not allowed to take the husband surname ( my cousins , aunties etc have this system ), this "system" also falls into southern french areas as well....but it could be only in the past.
      ( I will write to my cousin in Toulousse and see what they do now)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bartot View Post
        And in the early middle-ages Aquitanian was English owned for many many years, so if you are English you would fall under #12.
        As for me and knowing my history I would be either 5, 6 or 13
        Largely English but also a little Irish, Scottish, Welsh, German, and Dutch and some unknowns. Besides the Welsh, a lot of of the English was from the southwest too, so Cornish is not that strange a result either. If you set the focus around 1600-1750 it makes more sense to me than setting the focus to your own parents.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by 1796 View Post
          No once again obviously not about practicing religion! It is about a Jewish ancestry. People from long ago who happened to practice Judaism do happen to share alleles and haplogroups with other Middle Eastern people.
          I am either totally confused here, completely oblivious to what is being discussed or in another dimension.

          Do people realize that Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion? It is not tantamount to Catholicism or the Church of England or Protestantism or any other religion for that matter. I am a Jew by ethnicity whether or not I choose to be one by religion. I am a Jew genetically because my mother was Jewish and her mother was Jewish all the way back to one woman in the Middle East who is the "Eve" of the haplogroup K1a1b1a. I do not need 25% to show up to be considered Jewish because my mother is Jewish because her mother was Jewish, and so on. It is a matrilineal religion/group. People who have Jewish ancestry show up most probably have Jewish ancestry. Someone in their past probably was a Jew. They may have converted to Christianity or they may have been forced during the Inquisition or they may have been put up for adoption not knowing that their parents were Jews.

          There is a reason Jews suffer from certain genetic birth defects and genetic mutations. They are a distinct genetic ethnic group; like people of Mediterranean descent or Scandanavian descent , etc. Catholics, or Episcopalians do not have genetic diseases common to their groups.

          I am not sure if this information is helpful or if I am just not understanding the rhetoric used.

          And despite my 11% Jewish Jtest I am definitely a Jew. In fact, I am going home now to eat some rugelach.

          Amybeth

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
            I am either totally confused here, completely oblivious to what is being discussed or in another dimension.

            Do people realize that Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion? It is not tantamount to Catholicism or the Church of England or Protestantism or any other religion for that matter. I am a Jew by ethnicity whether or not I choose to be one by religion. I am a Jew genetically because my mother was Jewish and her mother was Jewish all the way back to one woman in the Middle East who is the "Eve" of the haplogroup K1a1b1a. I do not need 25% to show up to be considered Jewish because my mother is Jewish because her mother was Jewish, and so on. It is a matrilineal religion/group. People who have Jewish ancestry show up most probably have Jewish ancestry. Someone in their past probably was a Jew. They may have converted to Christianity or they may have been forced during the Inquisition or they may have been put up for adoption not knowing that their parents were Jews.

            There is a reason Jews suffer from certain genetic birth defects and genetic mutations. They are a distinct genetic ethnic group; like people of Mediterranean descent or Scandanavian descent , etc. Catholics, or Episcopalians do not have genetic diseases common to their groups.

            I am not sure if this information is helpful or if I am just not understanding the rhetoric used.

            And despite my 11% Jewish Jtest I am definitely a Jew. In fact, I am going home now to eat some rugelach.

            Amybeth
            I agree 100%. Being Jewish does not just mean you practice the religion of Judaism. There are Atheist Jews, etc. They still consider themselves Jewish even though they do not practice. Because Jewish is their ethnicity. If being Jewish is not a ethnicity, then why would any Admixture Calculator use Jewish data? If it's just a religion, we should also add Catholic and other religions to these Admixture Calculators. The reason is......Jewish is an ethnicity, Catholicism is not. Btw the Jtest is NOT accurate for everyone. The Jtest shows me at 5.25% Jewish, yet every other Admixture I run has me up to 20%+ Jewish admixture.

            Comment


            • #36
              Someone who is fully Ashkenazi is going to show only about 29%, Jewish on the J test; the rest of your Jewishness is going to be included in Eastern Mediterranean, or Middle Eastern, or possibly other areas.

              As for Jews being the only group with a correspondence between religion and ethnicity, that's not true. Arabic-speaking Maronite Catholics are an example.

              Comment


              • #37
                Jewish?

                @Javelin. Thanks for your explanation..you make it understandable.

                @Amybeth
                I agree with you completely.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
                  I am either totally confused here, completely oblivious to what is being discussed or in another dimension.

                  Do people realize that Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion? It is not tantamount to Catholicism or the Church of England or Protestantism or any other religion for that matter. I am a Jew by ethnicity whether or not I choose to be one by religion. I am a Jew genetically because my mother was Jewish and her mother was Jewish all the way back to one woman in the Middle East who is the "Eve" of the haplogroup K1a1b1a. I do not need 25% to show up to be considered Jewish because my mother is Jewish because her mother was Jewish, and so on. It is a matrilineal religion/group. People who have Jewish ancestry show up most probably have Jewish ancestry. Someone in their past probably was a Jew. They may have converted to Christianity or they may have been forced during the Inquisition or they may have been put up for adoption not knowing that their parents were Jews.

                  There is a reason Jews suffer from certain genetic birth defects and genetic mutations. They are a distinct genetic ethnic group; like people of Mediterranean descent or Scandanavian descent , etc. Catholics, or Episcopalians do not have genetic diseases common to their groups.

                  I am not sure if this information is helpful or if I am just not understanding the rhetoric used.

                  And despite my 11% Jewish Jtest I am definitely a Jew. In fact, I am going home now to eat some rugelach.

                  Amybeth
                  Here is a link from another poster that can perhaps articulate what I was trying to state http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/Spr...1Greenspan.pdf

                  I agree that being Jewish is an ethnicity. That is what I was trying to get at by calling it as Jewish ancestry. I had directed my comments at Bartot because quite frankly he confuses me a lot in his posts.

                  Another good place to check out is the FAQ section here about understanding Jewish ancestry. http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=18#291
                  Last edited by Táltos; 8 November 2012, 09:54 PM. Reason: Typos

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by vinnie View Post
                    Someone who is fully Ashkenazi is going to show only about 29%, Jewish on the J test; the rest of your Jewishness is going to be included in Eastern Mediterranean, or Middle Eastern, or possibly other areas.

                    As for Jews being the only group with a correspondence between religion and ethnicity, that's not true. Arabic-speaking Maronite Catholics are an example.
                    Yes I have to agree that it will be broken up into other components such as the East Med, Middle East, or West Asia.

                    I also wonder vinnie if we could include the Lipka Tatars as their ancestry corresponds with being Muslim.
                    Last edited by Táltos; 8 November 2012, 10:18 PM. Reason: Typo

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
                      I agree 100%. Being Jewish does not just mean you practice the religion of Judaism. There are Atheist Jews, etc. They still consider themselves Jewish even though they do not practice. Because Jewish is their ethnicity. If being Jewish is not a ethnicity, then why would any Admixture Calculator use Jewish data? If it's just a religion, we should also add Catholic and other religions to these Admixture Calculators. The reason is......Jewish is an ethnicity, Catholicism is not. Btw the Jtest is NOT accurate for everyone. The Jtest shows me at 5.25% Jewish, yet every other Admixture I run has me up to 20%+ Jewish admixture.
                      This is mega confusion...then who or what are israelies?

                      Admixture calculators call it jewish because it has alleles that the jews have...but other cultures/races have this alleles as well......you don't actually think that thousands of years ago they had a device to measure alleles as thus say you are a jewish person...do you?

                      Actually IMO then should be no national, religious or cultural markings...only geographical.....

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bartot View Post
                        This is mega confusion...then who or what are israelies?

                        Admixture calculators call it jewish because it has alleles that the jews have...but other cultures/races have this alleles as well......you don't actually think that thousands of years ago they had a device to measure alleles as thus say you are a jewish person...do you?

                        Actually IMO then should be no national, religious or cultural markings...only geographical.....
                        Being Israeli means you're an Israel citizen. That does not make you ethnically Jewish. People who are Jewish are born to Jewish parents. They don't have to be born to a family who practices the religion Judaism. Being Jewish is an Ethnicity, just like Italian is an ethnicity.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
                          Being Israeli means you're an Israel citizen. That does not make you ethnically Jewish. People who are Jewish are born to Jewish parents. They don't have to be born to a family who practices the religion Judaism. Being Jewish is an Ethnicity, just like Italian is an ethnicity.
                          So, If I understand correctly, jewish is a law/system which is as you say above, then the term israeli are other races inside israel ( not arabs or palestinians ) who have not got jewish parents.......so, its as I stated, about the ancient term called gentiles.

                          If a law/system is what we go by , then as per the Italian law of jus sanguinis, there where NO italians before 1861.......as a matter of fact if you family left Italy prior to this year you can never gain Italian ethnicity. We should never use the term Italian in our results.

                          Are genetics really going down this nationalistic/religious path where the bulk of propoganda and lies have been told and imbedded into the minds of it's people?
                          I thought genetics was clear and pure of this type of propoganda
                          Last edited by Bartot; 8 November 2012, 11:39 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bartot View Post
                            So, If I understand correctly, jewish is a law/system which is as you say above, then the term israeli are other races inside israel ( not arabs or palestinians ) who have not got jewish parents.......so, its as I stated, about the ancient term called gentiles.

                            If a law/system is what we go by , then as per the Italian law of jus sanguinis, there where NO italians before 1861.......as a matter of fact if you family left Italy prior to this year you can never gain Italian ethnicity. We should never use the term Italian in our results.

                            Are genetics really going down this nationalistic/religious path where the bulk of propoganda and lies have been told and imbedded into the minds of it's people?
                            I thought genetics was clear and pure of this type of propoganda

                            I have never heard of Italian's never existing prior to 1861. That's a new one. My surname is Italian from the 1500's. My family left Italy in the 1880-90's. "gentile" or "goyim" simply means Nation.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
                              I have never heard of Italian's never existing prior to 1861. That's a new one. My surname is Italian from the 1500's. My family left Italy in the 1880-90's. "gentile" or "goyim" simply means Nation.
                              Italian law
                              Italy: Possibly alone in this respect, Italian nationality law bestows citizenship jure sanguinis. There is no limit of generations for the citizenship via blood, but the Italian ancestor born in Italian territories before 1861 had to die after 1861 anywhere in the world without losing the Italian citizenship before death to being able to continue the jure sanguinis chain. This is required because 1861 is the year that the Unification of the Italian territory took place. Another constraint is that each descendant of the ancestor through whom citizenship is claimed jure sanguinis can pass on citizenship only if the descendant was a citizen at the time of the birth of the person to whom they are passing it. So, if any person in the chain renounces or otherwise loses the Italian citizenship and then has a child, that child is not an Italian citizen jure sanguinis. A further constraint is that until January 1, 1948, Italian law did not permit women to pass on citizenship. Persons born before that date are not Italian citizens jure sanguinis if their line of descent from an Italian citizen depends on a female at some point before 1948.

                              Your family would have been Neapolitans ethnicity and not italian ethnicity in the 1500's....there was no such thing as Italian etnicity until 1861 ( 1928 for lombards, veneti, trentini and friuilani)

                              Think of Italian before 1861 like this below.

                              swedes, norwegians, danes = Scandinavians
                              neapolitans, venetians, ligurians, tuscans etc = Italians
                              portuguese, galicians, catalonians, castilians = Iberians
                              welsh, english, scots, irish, cornish etc = british

                              These are Geographical expressions and not an ethnicity

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                this for jew

                                Israel: In addition to Israeli citizenship being granted to all ethnic groups and religions (a) by virtue of birth in Israel or (b) by naturalisation after five years' residency and the acquisition of a basic knowledge of Hebrew, (c) the Law of Return confers an automatic right to citizenship on any immigrant to Israel who is Jewish by birth or conversion, or who has a Jewish parent, grandparent or spouse or who is the spouse of a child of a Jew or the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew.
                                and
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return


                                Hebrew seems to be the language spoken by Israelis/jews .........that makes sense, so you could be a jew or non-jew even though you where classified a hebrew.

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