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  • Triangulating X matches

    It has been so hard preparing for Thanksgiving this week with my brain going in circles and during my breaks from cleaning, cooking etc. trying to research and prepare this message. I need some expert opinions & will try to keep this first post shorter than what I'd previously prepared.

    Jen Eliz. X 92307251 118788765 26.15 2925
    Eliza. Linda X 104057517 111604327 4.92 650 prob. IBS
    Ron Jen X 120029242 140986945 29.82 2675
    Ron Dick X 130047857 140986945 17.9 1400
    Jen Dick X 130047857 145480429 28.95 2300
    Jen Eliz. X 140087733 142420669 8.43 500 IBS?
    Eliza. Linda X 150690811 153900586 7.25 550 prob. IBS

    I'm, of course Linda, Jen & Elizabeth are both new matches at FTDNA after I helped them transfer from ancestry.com. We share a common ancestral couple, & Jen & I are 3rd cousins once removed, Elizabeth & I are 4th cousins. Dick is my maternal uncle

    Ron is related to all of us several times as he goes back to the same man (Thomas) 6 times in his maternal ancestry through 2 different sons, one which is the grandfather of the female in Dick, Jen & Elizabeths common couple.

    The common couple shared by Dick, Jen & Elizabeth could not be the same couple that provided Dick's X as that came from his mothers paternal side back to her paternal grandfather.

    However, my grandmothers maternal ancestors include this distant ancestor (Thomas) through a 3rd son and is more than likely the source of the X match between Dick & Ron (shared by 2 of my grandmothers sisters, just abt. the same cM's ect.)but, Jen's doesn't make it back as far to Thomas (act. his wife) even though the female was a granddaughter, there was a son, then grandson as her ancestors......

    Since Jen matches both Ron & Dick (and again abt. the same cM's also matching Jen by my 2 great aunts), and we have the possibility of another common ancestor that might work, I've tried to bring Ron into that picture, but just can't.

    But, there is another poss. that could shake a brick or 2 lose...

    But, am also looking at where Jen shares 2 X segment's with Jen, the first, before the overlap between Jen, Ron & Dick etc. could be from the ancestral couple in common between Jen, Elizabeth & Dick etc. the 2nd 8.43 segment however, appears to overlap where Jen, Ron & Dick also overlap.

    Elizabeth & I also share 2 smaller segments on the X, but my mother nor anyone else from my group match her, so I'm figuring that those smaller segments are IBS. could the 8.43 match with Jenn also be IBS?

    I tried to make this simple, but sorry if it came out confusing.

    Linda

  • #2
    Linda,
    It is a bit confusing. Best to fill out an X pedigree chart for each individual to see which X ancestors can be identified for each person's X segments. Use the female focused and male focused charts here at Debbie Parker Wayne's site:

    http://debbiewayne.com/presentations...alecolored.pdf

    http://debbiewayne.com/presentations...alecolored.pdf

    or use Genome Mate from each GEDcom.
    http://www.genomemate.org/

    Make sure you have compared each person with every other person in the chromosome browser.

    Comment


    • #3
      Kathy,

      Have done the X charts for everyone involved. Everyone is a member of a FF project I have at FTDNA, so have compared all chromosome browser information. Haven't included everyone in my Genome mate file, but I have an Excel spreadsheet (actually several different ones for the FF project) and have been going back & forward over all the info for the past 2 weeks trying to sort through this.

      I know we all share some of the same common ancestors or ancestral couples, all going back to colonial MD and thence to KY 1785-1820 and some of us have those same ancestors in our trees several times. But what may work for 2 on the X may not work for 3 or 4 of the group on the X.

      It is also possible that all 4 Ron, Dick, Jen & Elizabeth have some other distant ancestor than just Thomas in common due to the endogamy of the MD Catholics who migrated into KY, but that seems to be a long shot. However, am still persueing.

      However, another poss. exists that Jen could also go back to Thomas on another line which supports the X match between her, Ron & Dick, but doesn't explain the 8.43 segment with Elizabeth.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lindab View Post
        Kathy,

        Have done the X charts for everyone involved. Everyone is a member of a FF project I have at FTDNA, so have compared all chromosome browser information. Haven't included everyone in my Genome mate file, but I have an Excel spreadsheet (actually several different ones for the FF project) and have been going back & forward over all the info for the past 2 weeks trying to sort through this.

        I know we all share some of the same common ancestors or ancestral couples, all going back to colonial MD and thence to KY 1785-1820 and some of us have those same ancestors in our trees several times. But what may work for 2 on the X may not work for 3 or 4 of the group on the X.

        It is also possible that all 4 Ron, Dick, Jen & Elizabeth have some other distant ancestor than just Thomas in common due to the endogamy of the MD Catholics who migrated into KY, but that seems to be a long shot. However, am still persueing.

        However, another poss. exists that Jen could also go back to Thomas on another line which supports the X match between her, Ron & Dick, but doesn't explain the 8.43 segment with Elizabeth.
        The wife of Thomas could be more important than Thomas if they all share this couple but it sounds like there is a male to male transmission somewhere else down the path. Is that correct? I would really need to see the pedigrees to get a clearer picture of all the relationships and the male to female and the female to female X transmissions. I am a visual learner so I like to actually see where there is a male to male cut-off that would block this transmission.

        That 8.43 cM segment can be IBS rather than IBD but it is hard to say for sure. The SNP count is low. Two women with two Xs can match different ancestors than the males. Males only have one X to compare. There also can be pseudo-segments causing an IBS rather than an IBD state between women that would not show up in the males.

        The compatibility of the markers could also be better in the segments being transferred and compared from another company. Jen and Elizabeth are the new matches from another company.
        See this thread: http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=35434
        This region on the X has been plagued by holes in the matching due to different builds. The wrong versions of the markers were being read. Identical twins who tested at different times (months apart) got different results in this particular region at FTDNA. I think there are still regions on the X and on Chr 7 that have inadvertent gaps in matching in segments that should match.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kathy Johnston View Post
          The wife of Thomas could be more important than Thomas if they all share this couple but it sounds like there is a male to male transmission somewhere else down the path. Is that correct? I would really need to see the pedigrees to get a clearer picture of all the relationships and the male to female and the female to female X transmissions. I am a visual learner so I like to actually see where there is a male to male cut-off that would block this transmission.
          I don't want to post files or links here due to privacy issues of those involved. I can send to you privately one/or both of 2 different things.

          Links to all 4 trees at ancestry.com, and/or I had begun sometime ago a spreadsheet in MS Works, but think I could get the same info. into an Excel spreadsheet, of my groups ancestors with the ancestors underlined who could have contributed to the X and had also done this for Ron's maternal ancestors as well. I could set up sheets in the same way for both Jen & Eliz., but perhaps all would/could be more explanatory.

          Let me know? Appreciate your help and will reveal more when/if I can privately share with you.

          Linda

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lindab View Post
            I don't want to post files or links here due to privacy issues of those involved. I can send to you privately one/or both of 2 different things.

            Links to all 4 trees at ancestry.com, and/or I had begun sometime ago a spreadsheet in MS Works, but think I could get the same info. into an Excel spreadsheet, of my groups ancestors with the ancestors underlined who could have contributed to the X and had also done this for Ron's maternal ancestors as well. I could set up sheets in the same way for both Jen & Eliz., but perhaps all would/could be more explanatory.

            Let me know? Appreciate your help and will reveal more when/if I can privately share with you.

            Linda
            I sent you a private message. Feel free to send me the ancestry.com links privately.

            What can help others here is to put together pedigrees with first initial or with aliases. Gender is very important here. The cM lengths and locations are great as listed. We also need to know if there are good matches on other chromosomes. I am just making this request in case others are interested in presenting cases.

            We don't need the names on this forum, only the exact relationships to easily visualize the pedigree just to make sure we are dealing with an X pattern of inheritance for at least some of the participants.

            Even if it is simple, something like the following (not really your family, purely hypothetical) is always helpful:

            1. G (male) is related to T through mother < grandmother < great-grandfather L < great-great grandparents T (male) and C (female)

            2. S (male) is related to the same couple through mother < grandfather < great-grandmother J < great-great grandparents T (male) and C (female) where L is the brother of J.

            3. P (female) is also a cousin with a direct connection to T and C but cannot be related directly through the X chromosome. Her ancestry is father < grandfather < great-grandmother < great-great-grandfather L < great-great-great grandparents T (male) and C (female). etc. etc. etc.

            If testing was only done through FTDNA and not GEDmatch or through another 3rd party tool involving raw data, you need to also state that because FTDNA does not match cousins on the X alone. An X-only match can be very important in this situation.

            Comment


            • #7
              As Kathy suggested, I've attempted to list a pedigree (or pedigrees as the case may be) for each individual involved which I have listed last, after my many comments. Sorry this is long and thanks to all who read the entire post.

              As shared in my first post am again showing the X start > end > cM’s > snps & adding total cM shared (excluding the X) with the largest cM.
              Have also added Dick’s 2 aunts LC & RC (sisters of Dick‘s mother), not only because they also overlap with Dick, Jen & Ron on the X, but because of the significant amt of DNA (numerous over 20 cMs) they both share with Jen. Dick shares significantly with both aunts on the X, even though I am not showing their shared segments below (for simplicity), nor included my mother who is Dick’s sister & a 1st cousin of Dick’s all who also overlap on the X with Jen & Ron.

              Jen Eliz. X 92307251 118788765 26.15 2925 52.13 13.00
              Eliza. Linda X 104057517 111604327 4.92 650 42 18

              Ron Jen X 120029242 140986945 29.82 2675 59 17
              Jen LC X 129266525 145480429 29.79 2375 303 72
              Jen RC X 129266525 145480429 29.79 2375 268 58
              Ron LC X 130047857 140986945 17.9 1400 94.09 19.41
              Ron Dick X 130047857 140986945 17.9 1400 63.16 13.93
              Jen Dick X 130047857 145480429 28.95 2300 26 10
              Ron RC X 134310817 140986945 13.97 950 78.00 14.06
              Jen Eliz. X 140087733 142420669 8.43 500 52.13 13

              Eliza. Linda X 150690811 153900586 7.25 550 43 18

              Everyone tested at FTDNA with the exception of Jen & Elizabeth both who recently transferred their raw data to FTDNA. Linda (ME) also tested at ancestry & matched both Jen & Elizabeth there, I match Elizabeth at FTDNA but not Jen at FTDNA although Gedmatch does show us (Jen & Linda) as sharing a 9.87 cM segment on 18 & a 19 cM segment on the X overlapping with Ron, Dick Jen etc.

              Everyone else mentioned above has tested at FTDNA.

              My first post was in an attempt to A) rule out the 2 segments shared by Elizabeth & Linda as IBS and also B) the 2nd segment (8.43) shared by Elizabeth & Jen as possibly also being IBS. Elizabeth does NOT match any of the others on the X although she matches everyone on other chromosomes. I’ve looked at all 3 of our paternal lines for an explanation, but, unless there is something going on way back, I don’t see any possible connections between any combination of the 3.

              If I can rule out those 3 segments as IBS, I can move forward with the rest of the segments on the X, which MAY help to break down a brick wall!!!!

              Each individuals linages are at the end of this message. There are several for each, with the exception of just 1 for Elizabeth.

              Dick etc., Jen & Elizabeth are cousin's on Dick’s mothers paternal side through shared ancestor NW, wife of HC each through a different son of HC & wife NW (see Elizabeth, Jen 1, Dick 1). NW’s father was WW, grandfather RW and great grandparents TW & wife MJ.

              The first segment (26.15) that Jen & Elizabeth share appears to go back to the common ancestral couple, HC & NW. Dick etc. would NOT have gotten an X through this couple, nor would Jen & Elizabeth’s X go back to TW & MJ.

              Jen & Ron’s shared X segment (29.82) could have come down this same path. See (Jen 1) where Jen’s 3g gf was WW who was brother of Ron’s 4g gf JW (Ron 4).

              Where Jen & Dick etc. share an X segment (28.95) MIGHT be explained through the common surname shared by Dick's 4th great grandparents on his mothers maternal side TS (male) & MT (female) who may also have been Jen's 4th great grandparents, unproven by paper but dates & places indicate a probable connection. (see Dick 3, Jen 2).

              Where Ron & Dick etc share an X segment (17.9), as stated previously, could not be coming through Dick’s mother’s paternal side, but his mother’s maternal side where she again descends from TW & MJ. (see Dick 2, Ron 2 & Ron 3)

              However, the segments shared by Ron, Jen & Dick etc. all overlap, & Ron doesn't appear to have any connection to TS or wife MT & Jen's X path (Jen 1) doesn't go back to TW & wife MJ as it does for both Ron & Dick.

              Dick & Jen do have another shared surname, however we don’t know how the 2 men connect with each other due to brick walls with this particular surname Y DNA tests indicate they do share a common ancestor PC who was in immigrant to MD in 1674, but there are so few records during the 1700’s leaving gaps of 2 or more generations that we’re left guessing the possible connection back in time. (see Dick 4 Jen 3)

              So, how does Ron fit? And then, I had a light bulb moment!!!

              Besides sons mentioned above, everyone’s common ancestors TW & wife MJ had other children including a daughter MW whose husband was WC. WC is likely a grandson or great-grandson of PC. WC was still alive in 1792 when TW’s estate was going through probate, but was deceased by 1795 when TW’s descendants incl. WC’s widow MW, were selling his property in MD following which most of TW’s descendants migrated to KY.

              Although WC & MW appeared to have had a large family by 1783 (MD Assessment) and the 1790 census, there is no record to tell us who their children were, whether or not MW went to KY with most of her siblings or remained in MD.

              What if Jen’s ancestor CC was a son of WC & wife MW? If so, this would explain the X match with Ron & Dick etc.

              I have gone in circles over this, trying to search for other possibilities while also trying to not get too excited over the possibility of shaking loose a brick or two in an otherwise solid brick wall.

              Ancestry for each:
              Elizabeth descends from TW & MJ through mother < gf < g gm < 2g gf JC < 3g gm NW < 4g gf WW < 5g gf RW < 6g grandparents TW & MJ

              Jen 1 descends from TW & MJ through mother < gm < g gf WC < 2g gm NW < 3g gf WW < 4g gf RW < 5g grandparents TW & MJ
              Jen 2 through mother < gm < g gm < 2 g gm < 3 g gm SS < poss. 4 great grandparents TS & MT
              Jen 3 poss TW & MJ through mother < gm < g gm < 2 g gm < 3 g gf CS (brick wall) < in question, 4 g gm MW wife of WC < 5th great grandparents TW & MJ

              Dick 1descends from TW & MJ though mother < gf < g gf FC < 2g gm NW < 3g gf WW < 4g gf RW < 5g grandparents TW & MJ
              Dick 2descends from TW & MJ through mother < gm < g gf < 2g gm IS < 3g gm EW < 4g gf JW < 5 g grandparents TW & MJ
              Dick 3 through mother < gm < g gf < 2g gm IS < 3 g gf CS < 4th great grandparents TS & MT
              Dick 4 though mother < gf < g gf FC < 2g gf HC < 3g gf AC (brick wall)

              Ron 1 descends from TW & MJ through mother < gf < g gm < 2g gf WW < 3g gf MW < 4g gf RW < 5g grandparents TW & MJ
              Ron 2 descends from TW & MJ through mother < gf < g gm < 2g gm < 3g gm < 4g gf BW < 5g grandparents TW & MJ
              Ron 3 descends from TW & MJ through mother < gm < g gf < 2g gm < 3g gf < 4g gm < 5g gf BW < 6g grandparents TW & MJ
              Ron 4 descends from TW & MJ through mother < gm < g gf < 2g gm < 3g gm < 4g gf JW < 5g gf RW < 6g gparents TW & MJ
              Ron 5 descends from TW & MJ through mother < gm < g gm < 2g gf CW < 3g gf TW < 4gf WW < 5g gf RW < 6g gparents TW & MJ
              Ron 6 descends from TW & MJ through mother < gm < g gm < 2g gm < 3g gf GW < 4g gf BW < 5g grandparents TW & MJ.

              Comment


              • #8
                Looks like a solid X lineage back to MJ the wife of TW. It is not absolute proof, but it is suggestive.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kathy Johnston View Post
                  Looks like a solid X lineage back to MJ the wife of TW. It is not absolute proof, but it is suggestive.
                  It looks like Elizabeth's connection stops with the mother and father of NW. I doubt that Elizabeth's X match is real with Jen unless she is related to Jen on her father's side. This suggests IBS not IBD. Elizabeth does not match Ron or Dick here.

                  Ron and Dick only have one segment sequence to share and they probably triangulate with Jen back to MJ, the wife of TW.

                  Dick's number 2 lineage does connect to MJ through the X chromosome as does Ron's number 2 and 3 lineage. Males have fewer pathways to follow (than females) so these particular ones look good. As you say, Jen could also descend through MW. It makes sense to me anyway. It is always nice to see a brick wall broken if that is the case.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    TY kathy

                    I do have some more research to do before I think I can confirm this, but esp. with Ron's association with TW & MJ 6 different paths through his mother, makes it difficult to find other paths that would also match the other 2 parties here (Jen & Dick). With this poss. connection in mind, it is starting to make sense with some of the later paper trails I've found. Will keep you posted when I feel comfortable doing the happy dance.

                    Linda

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
                      X 4440103 22828788 28.2 2597
                      X 125212114 150098413 42.8 3179
                      Chr 23
                      Largest segment = 42.8 cM
                      Total of segments > 7 cM = 71.1 cM Actual.


                      X-match with my uncle(mom's brother)
                      so he got his one X from my grandmother

                      my mom got her X's one from my grandmother-one from my grandfather

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