Viking FGC23343

[benowicz]

Looks like they changed their mind about the position of the new guy. They split him off on a new branch outside of FGC23343. Minimal impact on age estimates, although it does reinforce suspicions I have about FTNDA's reporting for undifferentiated donors under FT238266 and FGC23349. I'm not sure their reported unshared variant counts are reasonable, but I'll note that the entire point of my overtly probabilistic approach is designed to avoid contamination by such outliers. The VC reported for undifferentiated guy under FGC23353 seems on the high end of the reasonable spectrum derived from the much better represented FGC23343; high, but reasonable.




TMRCA estimates as of 18 February 2023.png

[benowicz]

Tweaked my TMRCA estimation algorithm in order to more accurately accommodate weird topologies and provide meaningful MoE, CI and Alpha statistics. I think the results are largely consistent with prior methods, but I feel a bit better about FGC28371 and Y74676.

FG23343 dated phylogeny as of 6 December 2022.png

Encouraged by the success using this method for an important benchmark clade.

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/general-interest/scientific-papers/331435-how-does-this-paper-meet-the-minimum-standard-for-reperformance?p=333551#post333551

There seems to be a new guy in the block tree within the 'undifferentiated' section of FGC23343. I have enough information from public projects, etc. to infer the relevant product platforms, and therefore approximate variant counts and resolution. So updating my TMRCA estimates, cascading down from FGC23351, dates changed by less than 10 years all across the board. So no point in uploading a whole new chart.

I did, however, take the opportunity to review the comparisons between STR-derived dates to the SNP-derived data for FGC28370 and descendants, and noticed my dates were literally hundreds of years closer than Discover's all across the board. Discover really don't seem to care how transparently obvious it is that their dates are wrong. Which is not news, but whatever.

[benowicz]

A few lines of inquiry for you that may eventually prove fruitful . . . 3. There are some pedigrees online that show a supposedly Huguenot family named Vincent settling in New Jersey--fairly close to Berks, PA--before heading to the counties straddling the northern border between modern VA and WV. Their ultimate origin is supposed to be the Ile de Re, near La Rochelle, which I believe is highly consistent with the distribution of Z209's descendant clades. Maybe not every branch of this pedigree is supported with the kind of detail I'd like, but they have some very interesting discussion of their immigrant ancestor.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-9458

Also close by to your family was this Revolutionary War veteran, Lieutenant John Vincent, of Hampshire Co., [W]VA. He was born at Kensington, near London in 1750.

http://revwarapps.org/s16566.pdf

Your ancestor, Joseph Vincent, held a Captain's commission in the company from Dunmore/Shenandoah County. He lived in Shenandoah until the end of the War and rented property in Frederick Co., VA through about 1808. These counties are all adjacent to Hampshire.

https://revwarapps.org/w22951.pdf

https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Joseph_Vincent_(4)


On the other hand, they're not too far from Washington Co., MD, either, where the family of John [Conrad?] Vincent of the NJ Huguenot family apparently lived between at least 1780 and 1788.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-3773

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-3943

These critical generations of the Huguenot family are not super thoroughly documented--at least on the pedigree I've seen. It may be open to question as whether these Maryland Vincents really do connect to the New Jersey Huguenots, although I have seen some well documented families named Johnson and Vannoy that followed a similar migration route.

Having been a Captain in the Revolution, it seems like your ancestor Joseph should have had a bit more documentation surrounding his immediate family. Lt. John Vincent doesn't specifically mention any family in Shenandoah, so there's not much to project from. It's too bad Joseph didn't have a pension application.

[benowicz]

A few lines of inquiry for you that may eventually prove fruitful:

1. atDNA. There are tons of descendants of the Vincent family who are on the free atDNA analytical site Gedmatch.com. It's a long-term project that will require patience and careful documentation, but you could identify specific shared segments and eventually discover a foreign-born match who can confidently lead you to your immigrant ancestor.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-41

2. The earliest generations of Vincents in Greenbrier seem particularly closely associated with the Jarrett family. Two marriages before 1800. Some claim the Jarretts were French Huguenots who temporarily settled in Berks Co., PA before heading south. There doesn't appear any clear contemporary documentation on that point, but members of the family have performed Y STR testing that can be tested versus this idea. There were definitely some small number of Huguenots in early Berks, but I don't think they could be considered a coherent "community". One such family I know were from Normandy, but all the others of whom I am aware were Walloons, not really where I would expect a subclade of Z209 to originate.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jarrett-1404#Ancestors

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/57641648/james-madison-jarrett

3. There are some pedigrees online that show a supposedly Huguenot family named Vincent settling in New Jersey--fairly close to Berks, PA--before heading to the counties straddling the northern border between modern VA and WV. Their ultimate origin is supposed to be the Ile de Re, near La Rochelle, which I believe is highly consistent with the distribution of Z209's descendant clades. Maybe not every branch of this pedigree is supported with the kind of detail I'd like, but they have some very interesting discussion of their immigrant ancestor.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-9458

[benowicz]

. . . So maybe I should update my FTDNA documented ancestor to colonial Virginia????? It seems to be the only thing all my genealogies agree. My book still says scotland but scotland county or country I cannot be sure. . .

That seems like an appropriately conservative approach.

It's kind of frustrating that there isn't anything much on point. My own searches only showed a handful of isolated records in Virginia that didn't seem to add up to any cohesive picture that suggested any specific immigrant scenario. Just a couple names, dates and places without any idea how they got there or how they related to any of their neighbors. Not much to go on.

Maybe an intense, laser-like focus on specific atDNA segments attributable to your earliest Vincent ancestors might be helpful. If you map them out by specific base pair coordinates, and look at the pedigrees of people sharing them, you might get lucky and notice a few foreign-born people in the mix.

atDNA is painfully difficult to work with in my opinion, if you're trying to research anything before the mid-19th century. Almost everybody is brickwalled on some branch of their pedigree, so usually conclusions can only be tentative. But sometimes you get lucky. I've seen a handful of segments that can convincingly be attributed to specific ancestors born in the early 17th century. That's probably the best-case scenario timeframe to make significant progress on your Vincents.

[SDV]

Thought I'd go quietly but I had a few hours on a Saturday afternoon In January and I worked out the Vincent Tree with the Joplings.





I found something else today that may interest you, I finally found the web pages that were of help to my grandmother. In internet years they are from ancient era of geocities. The following archived pages:

https://web.archive.org/web/20091027154323/http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/3231/Jopling.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20091027...31/Oatman.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20091027154321/http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/3231/footsteps.html

Enjoy

[SDV]

Additionally before January closes out, I want to point you to the Father of Joseph G. I've seen where Joseph was John Fraziers and Nancy Renicks son and have seen where he was the child of Lucy Jopling and Joseph Vincent. I have not found an actual record of birth (colonial birth records..) but have seen where John at least considers Joseph G. family. I have also surmised (at times) he was Joseph and Lucy's child then went to live on his uncles plantation with his uncles family. Whether that be the case, is unclear to me. I will link a link a site that goes more into detail between Vincents and Joplings which I'm more inclined to believe because Joseph G bought land from Josiah Vincent in Missouri and I have DNA hits with Joplings....

https://kaddabuddha.tripod.com/ (on the left menu go press the Vincent link)


So maybe I should update my FTDNA documented ancestor to colonial Virginia????? It seems to be the only thing all my genealogies agree. My book still says scotland but scotland county or country I cannot be sure.

Anyway.
Good tidings!
Enjoy the year

[SDV]

I enjoy the detective work, but the effort is herculean. I applaud all researchers efforts.
Also, I misstated in my previous post, there are not competing agendas, there are different stories and viewpoints, that was rather unfair of me to write.

I need to step away from all of this for a bit, come back to it later in the year.
Might pick up more ancestry research in the coming months, just to check to see if anything is new.

The civil war in the United States played a significant role in the families history and I am glad where my forefather stood. That said, I have a teensy bit of a pathological need to jump the pond, I feel like there is more of a story to tell.


Anyway. Enjoy 2023.
Good tidings!

[SDV]

Some quick housekeeping this morning before I head out.
Some clarification is in order for the life of John Frazier Vincent, the Father of Joseph G. my GGG-Grandfather. John Frazier Vincent first married about 1808 in Virginia, USA to Nancy Renick.
John Frazier Vincent married secondly about 1827 in Virginia, USA to Sarah Ellen Hoke (1806–1882).

John was a slaveholder, miller and property owner. He moved his family, possessions and 15 slaves from Virginia, down the Ohio River by steamboat.
In 1846 he bought 3,350 acres on Little Fork between Grayson and Anglin Hitchins. The land was cleared and the settlement became Vincent Switch on EK Railroad.

Four of John's slaves escaped to Ohio to be free. This is the NPE I share Y DNA.

This is the ONLY Y-match I have found at FTDNA, MyHeritage and 23andMe. My father is on Ancestry and so far no hits on our Y chromosome. Both of us have thousands upon thousands of autosomal hits. I suspect most of the Vincent men died in the Civil War, Joseph fought for the Northern Yanks and was quoted as lame upon enlistment (I had a stroke at 30, Hereditary Thrombophilia, so I can empathize) Joseph was a wagon driver in the Civil War. After the war I have antidotal evidence that Joseph drove wagons west to Oregon, and south to Texas. Joseph maintained a household with America at the trails head in Missouri leading to my family and cousins in Missouri.

Wikitree of Joseph G. that I maintain and added a few things from my big book of family.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-777

There are other Vincent families with competing agendas that share zero Ydna with my profile which is confusing, frustrating, and as a footnote Josephs sister appears to have gone to Australia post-Civil War maintaining the Vincent last name with her son.

[SDV]

The one hicccup
"......so I hope there really is independent confirmation of this. Like maybe a Y STR DNA match? Or at least a very good set of atDNA matches involving many divergent branches?"

No. I have nothing, the only one Y match along any line of decent was the NPE event from the John Frazier Vincent era and them fleeing to the free-state of Ohio.
It's not the most scientific... but
Jean being the French derivative of John, the father of Joseph is how I made that connection. Not scientific by any means, but the circumstantial evidence is curious.

if the French_Heritage DNA project has contradictory DNA, for the entire line of decent then I am not them.
There is also one piece of information hanging.
John Vincent of the ship Rachel of Jersey, a vessel entering the Rappahanock River.from 24th June to 25th December 1700.
(Where did he leave to on Christmas day.... (back to Jersey? or maybe French Canada? perhaps North Carolina? and why does one leave on Christmas?)
Jean Vincent Died at sea in 1758, the perfunctory connection I made

Jean/John would have been Joseph Sr. father.
Joseph Sr. purchased land before the revolutionary war according to records I've seen and got citizenship after the war.

• Revolutionary War Rolls, 1775-1783; (National Archives Microfilm Publication M246, 138 rolls); War Department Collection of Revolutionary War Records, Record Group 93; National Archives, Washington. D.C.
• Revolutionary War Records Vol I, Virginia by Gaius Marcus Brumbaugh

So if we decide not to go with the French colonials we have Husband John Vincent.and Wife Sarah Preen. Child: Joseph Vincent. Child: Joseph Unknown. Child: John II Vincent. Child: Cassius 'Cash' Vincent. Marriage 2 Nov 1738. Kidderminster, Worcestershire, England. Marriage circa 1746. (future Lewis/Scotland Co. area) Louisiana French Colony
Moderatly Confident these Vincents are from haplogroup I-Y43589

Sooooooooo.....

https://www.geni.com/people/Joseph-V...00021427004018

OR

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-24

VERSUS

https://www.geni.com/people/Jean-Vincent/6000000055568755946

OR

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-6696

Like I stated earlier, closer to jumping the pond, just not quite there as of now.

[benowicz]

Additionally I'm updating my last known ancestor to P.E.I. Canada. Looks to me from the the info I can parse, Jean Vincent the father of Joseph Sr. was born at Port Royal Nova Scotia Canada and dies in 1834 (81-90) Shenandoah,Virginia,USA. This place being where my family moved from, to Kentucky before the Civil War, I'm inclined to associate the name with my line and that puts a more french spin on my families background. . . .

This sounds more in line with the observed distribution of TMRCA estimates within FT372222. Feels right.

But can I ask how the link was made between Joseph and Jean? I've seen one Geni.com account that claimed such a link as early as 2017, but cites no contemporary documents.

https://www.geni.com/people/Joseph-Vincent-Sr/6000000021427004018

I had made some broad speculation about such an origin when this thread started, in late 2016, so I hope there really is independent confirmation of this. Like maybe a Y STR DNA match? Or at least a very good set of atDNA matches involving many divergent branches?

There was a very numerous Acadian French family named Vincent settled in and around Port Royal at an early date. The best account of them I've seen admits there is no direct evidence as to their precise home town in France, but context suggests it was somewhere around La Rochelle, which I think makes good sense given the distribution of ZZ40_1 and the histories of some other FGC23343+ families.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vincent-392

Problem is, there is a group of families on the French_Heritage DNA project who claim descent from that very family, and they are clearly not a match. Kit #s 851142 and 254973. R-M198. Founders Pierre Vincent and Anne Gaudet, m. 1663.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage?iframe=yresults

[SDV]

Additionally I'm updating my last known ancestor to P.E.I. Canada. Looks to me from the the info I can parse, Jean Vincent the father of Joseph Sr. was born at Port Royal Nova Scotia Canada and dies in 1834 (81-90) Shenandoah,Virginia,USA. This place being where my family moved from, to Kentucky before the Civil War, I'm inclined to associate the name with my line and that puts a more french spin on my families background.

Where they came from the channel Islands Jersey Guernsey or Sark island I haven't the documentation currently, but the information seems to point the direction of Jersey. Jean (english John?) Sailing up the Rappahanock and leaving on Christmas Day, the names sailing with the ship Rachel of Jersey, Johns crew appear quite French....Think a previous family genealogist may have crossed Scotland county here in Missouri and Dumfries Virginia with Scotland the country in some records.

Alot of cross currents with early colonials.
Dumfries, is a town in Prince William County, Virginia and may have been the entry point to my families American arrival from French Canada. I leave my findings here, this was a productive weekend.

[SDV]

Found a document that may be of use.
There are three Vincents listed as living in the Virginia Colony as of 1700. Vans page 139(Essex county),Inge page 158 (King William County) and Mary page 214 (Surrey county).

There is a fourth Vincent, John Vincent page 288 that is listed as the owner of the ship Rachel of Jersey, a vessel entering the Rappahanock River.from 24th June to 25th December 1700
Square Stern, built Charlestown 1699, 70 Tons John Vincent, Master
Charles Lehardy, Cha: Pointestre, Philip Pipon,
Philip Patriach, Elie Dunraresq, John de Carterel,
Geo. le Brun, Jno. Vincent, Owners

http://www.ancestraltrackers.net/va/...ia-records.pdf

[benowicz]

Tweaked my TMRCA estimation algorithm in order to more accurately accommodate weird topologies and provide meaningful MoE, CI and Alpha statistics. I think the results are largely consistent with prior methods, but I feel a bit better about FGC28371 and Y74676.

FG23343 dated phylogeny as of 6 December 2022.png

Encouraged by the success using this method for an important benchmark clade.

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/general-interest/scientific-papers/331435-how-does-this-paper-meet-the-minimum-standard-for-reperformance?p=333551#post333551

[benowicz]

So there actually was a Miles Vincent at Swinford, Leicestershire in the early 1300s, about 55 years after the 1st recorded member of that family resided at Rothwell. So maybe this has no impact on the early branches of the family hypothesized to date. We'll see. But at least his existence wasn't made up from whole cloth.

William, son of Miles Vincent of Swinford 1327 C.E..png