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  • Viking FGC23343

    R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > S450 > Z209 > ZZ40 > FGC23343

    The Big Tree

    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php...ar=&STR=DYS715

    DF27 Project

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults


    Telling markers might be DYS557=16; DYS534=15; DYS444=13; DYS446=13; DYS565=11

    Y Search has a profile for a person last-name Dorey who matches the project participants. DEAGD.

    The project also has several people named Doble who only tested up through Z209 who appear likely to be FGC23343+ based on haplotype.


    The thing is that Dorey's ancestor (DEAGD) was actually born in Normandy on Jersey. The Edgeworths have a tradition of Norman ancestry. The standard origin in name books for the name Doble is also Norman.

    Henderson has tree from 1742. His family live in Shetland.

    https://www.bayanne.info/Shetland/sh...tID=8&tree=ID1

    He doesn't say he belongs to the main Shetland Henderson family, but those ones have a tree that goes back to Denmark in the middle ages.

    http://www.clanhendersonsociety.org/...erson-regions/

    Chalmers is from Angus on the east coast of Scotland, just across from Norway, but that name is also very common in Orkney.

    Canovas says he's from Spain in the project, but on other sites the donor says his family is from Longjumeau, not far from Normandy in northern France.

    There are other subclades of Z209 nearby to FGC23343 on the Big Tree that have a lot of representation in Scandinavia, too, like S21184. That is the most SNP for the name Burke, too, which is Norman.

    I think these are Vikings, not Spanish.

  • #2
    More evidence of this migration route from Norway/Denmark to Scotland to Normandy to England:

    There are a lot of place names in Normandy that come from Gaelic (i.e., Scottish) people, meaning that the original settlers were from the Viking colonies in Scotland. Doncanville, Quinéville, etc., all concentrated in the north end of the Cotentin peninsula, directly across from Jersey and the channel islands.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=nk...Gaelic&f=false

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_toponymy

    There are some names in Normandy from English people, too, (e.g., Englesqueville, etc.) but they are concentrated further east, away from Cotentin.


    So the ancestors of these FGC23343+ people probably were not in the original warband of Hrolf the Ganger, who supposedly came directly from Denmark. The SNP could have originated in Scotland or maybe Dublin among Viking descendants.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo

    Comment


    • #3
      Dorey is very common name on Jersey, with no normal documentation about their earliest origins. But at least one branch of the family is emphatic that it is of Viking origin.

      https://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Dorey

      One researcher working on families on the Cotentin with that same specific spelling, with a Y at the end, say they have been at Crasville, within 5 miles of Quineville, one of the Scottish place names I talked about earlier, since the 1200s.

      https://www.theislandwiki.org/index....dy_genealogist
      Last edited by benowicz; 10th February 2018, 12:49 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        The first family of Viscounts of Cotentin frequently used the Irish-Norse name Néel (i.e., Niall or Njall).

        https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A..._Saint-Sauveur

        https://books.google.com/books?id=ck...eur%22&f=false

        The legends surrounding their origin are tied up with an iffy 13th-century Icelandic saga about Hrolf the Ganger, but the Néel family are said to descend from Eystein Glumra, whose family were early earls of Orkney in Scotland.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eystein_Glumra

        So this migration route from Shetland to Normandy should maybe not surprise us.
        Last edited by benowicz; 12th February 2018, 08:31 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          As for the Edgeworths, nothing is known of their home in Normandy. Though there may be a few clues in the pattern of their early associations in England.

          https://inventorybag.com/blogs/norma...n-de-edgeworth

          The de Laceys rented Lassy, among other places located just south of the Cotentin peninsula, from the Bishop of Bayeux.

          Payn fitz John's family were from the western shores of the Contentin, directly across from Guernsey and Jersey, at Vains near Avranches. Payn's earliest known ancestor was his great grandfather, Ranulf, a mill owner and money lender.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_fitzJohn

          There have been a lot of attempts to take Ranulf's line further back, but it seems to be pretty well acknowledged today that they have all failed. Ranulf was definitely NOT a brother of the ancestors of the de Burgh family, as is often claimed--though the supposed Irish branch of the de Burghs do belong to S21184, a brother clade of FGC23343. But though those clades are closer to one another than to any others currently identified in the tree, they're still separated by more than a couple thousand years.

          There also seems to have been an attempt to link the Comtes d'Avranches to the Eysteinson family discussed earlier. They all look like 19th century interpretations of a 13th century Icelandic Saga that in fact conflicts with a probably more reliable 11th century account (at least with respect to this one genealogical point). Dudo of Saint-Quentin appears to have had good grounds to say that Hrolf the Ganger was born in Denmark, not Orkney or Norway as would be the case with the Eysteinsons. Plus, I can't find anything in the quotes of Dudo's work that encourage a direct, male-line link between Hrolf's family and the Cotentin families I've looked at to date--this is probably pure 19th century invention.


          So, at this point, while there is a definite bias in the associations of the Edgeworths towards western Normandy, consistent with the Jersey origins of Dorey (DEAGD), that is about all that can be said. Just very weak circumstantial evidence.

          Comment


          • #6
            There is a Norwegian-derived place name in the neighborhood of these Lacy and fitz Ranulf connections of the early Edgeworths that might be of interest--Le Mesnil-Opac, about equidistant from Lassy and Vains, but slightly further north.

            https://books.google.com/books?id=xs...lla%22&f=false

            It derives from the old Norwegian name Ospakr, which was used by the Hebridean dynasty descended from Somerled, whose kindred is R1a.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93spakr-H%C3%A1kon

            Three other points may be of interest here:

            Somerled is also represented directly in the place names of Cotentin. As that link points out, somewhat farther north, in today's Saint Germain-le-Gaillard, there was a place called Summerleeville.

            According to the article by Eric Van Tourhoudt I linked to earlier, Summerleeville was likely within core sphere of influence of the so-called Néel Viscounts of Saint Sauveur.

            https://books.google.com/books?id=ck...eur%22&f=false

            Second, beginning on page 15, Van Torhoudt talks about the Néel Viscounts' patronage of some churches dedicated to Saint Columba--whose primary foundation was at Iona in the Hebrides, in the heart of Somerled country.

            One of those Norman churches dedicated to Columba is called La Colombe today, about half way between Le Mesnil Opac and Vains.


            Finally, cycling back to the Edgeworths, two miles north west of Le Mesnil Opac is a place called Le Mesnil Herman. The first documented ancestor of the Edgeworths was a fellow called Herman de Egewurd, an associate of the de Laceys and the Fitz Ranulfs. Wikipedia says the first documentary reference to Le Mesnil Herman is from 1280, a couple hundred years after the Edgeworths had left, but maybe the name had been around earlier.

            At 1066, both Le Mesnil Opac and Herman were part of the lordship of William de Moyon, whose lands in England were in Somerset and Dorset.

            https://associationguillaumedemoyon....tory-of-moyon/

            The Edgeworth Y DNA signature represented by kit 350317 in the DF27 project has a lot of reasonably close matches bearing different surnames. However, a close examination of them leads me to believe that Thacker and Knuckles are descendants of a 17th century London merchant named Swift who came to Virginia. Knuckles also belongs to the subclade of FGC23343 called FGC28370.

            Anyhow, the earliest trace of the Swifts is supposed to be in Tellisford, Somerset, quite a bit further east from Dunster, where the Moyons' English descendants were situated, but still in Somerset. I got confused trying to track any current Moyon/Mohun descendants, but the main male line survived until the early 1700s, at least.

            I don't think there is much chance that the Edgeworth participant is also a Swift because as far as I can tell the donor is descended from a branch that migrated to Ireland from north Wales in the 1600s.

            Comment


            • #7
              So, to summarize, I think the evidence, as weak and circumstantial as it is, suggests that FGC23343 probably originated in Norway or in Shetland or Orkney among Norwegian colonists a thousand years or so ago. Most of the people currently tested positive for it had ancestors in western Normandy in the 10th century who, based on evidence of place names, had probably been in the Hebrides before then.

              Comment


              • #8
                henderson FGC23343

                I am of the Henderson from the Shetlands referred to in this forum. My John Henderson lived in Noss about 1760 but I don'y know anything prior to that. I think he was a different branch of Hendersons on Shetland than others since the others, I believe, are I haplotype (looking at Shetland project group). Anyway, this is an interesting discussion perhaps relating me thru Vikings via France!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by larhee View Post
                  I am of the Henderson from the Shetlands referred to in this forum. My John Henderson lived in Noss about 1760 but I don'y know anything prior to that. I think he was a different branch of Hendersons on Shetland than others since the others, I believe, are I haplotype (looking at Shetland project group). Anyway, this is an interesting discussion perhaps relating me thru Vikings via France!
                  Thanks for the response.

                  Since posting this, I have noted a few other haplotypes within the Ysearch database that I believe are likely to also be FGC23343+. Most have French-sounding names but no real history before say 1800.

                  But two are quite definitely German, from areas near the border with the Netherlands. This is very different than my expectation.

                  Maybe FGC23343 is much older than just a quick glance at their haplotypes would suggest. Possibly only a subset of these are Vikings that found their way to Normandy. But this part of Germany was invaded many times by France and both of the Germans' families were located on the Rhine River, a main artery for trade for all of Europe. It's so hard to say.

                  If you have any specific observations, like knowledge of STR haplotype or Big Y matches that I am not aware of, I would be very interested. You can send me a personal message if you did not want to publish.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As a side note, it was FGC23343's presence in Shetland, and to a lesser extent, Angus, that led me to believe that it was primarily a "Viking" SNP. The clear Medieval links to Normandy of two other donors just seemed to provide persuasive support.

                    But I recognize that despite its small size, Shetland holds significant Y chromosome diversity. Or at least that there are multiple independent origins for many surnames there.

                    I have seen some online projects discussing the pedigrees of the most prominent Henderson family, and they seem all to be concentrated on the opposite end of Shetland to your ancestors.

                    Although, as far as I am aware of, two other Shetland Henderson DNA donors have published their results and pedigrees, they don't appear to match either your family or each other, and it's not clear whether which if any of them represents the true line of those prominent Hendersons.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                      . . . I have noted a few other haplotypes within the Ysearch database that I believe are likely to also be FGC23343+. . . (T)wo are quite definitely German, from areas near the border with the Netherlands. This is very different than my expectation.
                      I guess this could be a lame rationalization, but I have just learned that the Vikings also raided the home cities of these two Germans I speculatively call FGC23343+.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking..._the_Rhineland

                      There are vague references to long-term occupation of various places along the Rhine, but the only large-scale colonization in the region seems to be along the Frisian coast.

                      So maybe FGC23343 is much older than the Viking age, but maybe not. There seems to be specific reason to believe that some Viking activity along the Rhine is related to the "Great Heathen Army" active in north eastern England.

                      Note that those FGC23343+ people with clear ties to England all closely match a well-documented member of the Edgeworth family, whose origins were clearly Norman, and cluster in the south-west of that country--the opposite end from the Great Heathen Army's activity.

                      Some people seem to believe that the leadership of the Great Heathen Army belonged to the Ui Imair dynasty whose primary activity was in Ireland and the Hebrides.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_%C3%8Dmair
                      Last edited by benowicz; 26th February 2018, 02:18 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        hiya

                        Sorry to barge in here, I'm the 'Chalmers' mentioned. For what it's worth, I've always thought the name Chalmers sounded a bit to French for Scotland.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          From what I've been told, 'Chalmers' is an old, maybe regional variation of the same name as 'Chambers', or 'Chamberlain' that it originated as some type of royal house hold official, in the same way that 'Stewart' and 'Butler' did.

                          I don't know much about the name, but I get the impression that it's common throughout Scotland, but particularly Orkney.

                          I think the most prominent Chalmers family was from the Angus area, but any chance your family has more remote origins in Orkney?

                          The Viking/Norman angle is kind of hard to follow unless it's associated with a specific French place name, like the Bruces and Brix.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There's no Orkney connection that I'm aware of. I and my father were born in Michigan. My Grandfather was born in Port Glasgow but his father and everyone I've been able to trace (back to 1680) were born in various places in Angus.

                            Except a 6x or so Great Grandfather married a woman from Orkney. So, there could be something but...

                            There internet explanation of the name is that it was Frenchified when a Chambers moved to France and moved back to Scotland at some point. That seems kinda hard to swallow when the name is so common in Scotland.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just as a side note, the earliest reference I could find to the Chalmers name was in Scotland in 1313. Supposedly an inscription at a church in Aberdeen. From Burke's General Armory. There's a not very believable story about them being a branch of the Cameron clan temporarily gone to France, but the description of the church thing seems real.

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