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Viking FGC23343

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  • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
    . . .If anyone here can access a magnified copy of the map in the wikipedia article, and can come upon a translation of the Basque captions, I would be very grateful. It seems to indicate specific (archaelogical? documentary?) evidence that early Basque mariners had a presence in Shetland and the Scottish isles.
    Maybe the Shetland caption is in reference to this, an Ogham stone once speculated to be written in a Basque language:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunnasting_stone

    It seems to be discredited now. Not that it necessarily disproves an early Basque presence in Shetland, just that it may not directly support it.

    Comment


    • "It is not clear when Basque mariners first began fishing off the coast of Ireland but the ordinances of 1553 of the confraternity of fishermen of the Spanish Basque port of Bermeo indicate that men from there were already fishing in Irish waters by then. Furthermore, in a lawsuit over the fishing voyage of the ship Bárbara of San Sebastián to the Irish coast in 1506 witnesses testified that fishermen from that port ‘have been accustomed to go fishing [in Ireland] from times immemorial’."

      https://www.historyireland.com/early...eenth-century/

      Comment


      • Regarding multiple children of the same father who bear the same baptismal name, there are numerous examples at least as late as the 16th Century. Working with (Latin) medieval documents in French-speaking Switzerland (where occasional links to England appear as well!), I have found several examples where three sons of the same father had the same given name. Examples where two sons have the same name are more numerous, frequent enough to be a perpetual source of confusion. It is not always the case that they had different mothers. I even found a family where two brothers both named Petrus married two sisters from another family both named Claudia. I'm sure the families thought this was so cute! (Endless couples are found named Johannes and Johanneta, Claudius and Claudia, Stephanus and Stephaneta, Perretus and Perreta, Vulliermus and Vulliermeta, etc. Seemingly too frequently to be the result of chance alone -- marriages arranged to be cute!)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by John McCoy View Post
          Regarding multiple children of the same father who bear the same baptismal name, there are numerous examples at least as late as the 16th Century. Working with (Latin) medieval documents in French-speaking Switzerland (where occasional links to England appear as well!), I have found several examples where three sons of the same father had the same given name. Examples where two sons have the same name are more numerous, frequent enough to be a perpetual source of confusion. It is not always the case that they had different mothers. I even found a family where two brothers both named Petrus married two sisters from another family both named Claudia. I'm sure the families thought this was so cute! (Endless couples are found named Johannes and Johanneta, Claudius and Claudia, Stephanus and Stephaneta, Perretus and Perreta, Vulliermus and Vulliermeta, etc. Seemingly too frequently to be the result of chance alone -- marriages arranged to be cute!)
          For some of those cases there is a known simple explanation.
          The patrons or patron saints were different.

          For example, to many there is just one name John. On the other hand:
          • John Chrysostom (Saint John Chrysostom)
          • John Damascene (Saint John of Damascus)
          • John the Baptist (Saint John the Baptist)

          were three different people. If the designated feast day was close, the baptismal records could have omitted the designation, as it was obvious which John...


          Mr. W.

          Comment


          • Naming children after different saints, for example John the Evangelist and John the Baptist, is certainly a possibility, but these cases are found in a period when baptisms were not recorded (in my examples, 14th to very early 16th Centuries), so there is no way to know if this is the correct explanation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by John McCoy View Post
              Naming children after different saints, for example John the Evangelist and John the Baptist, is certainly a possibility, but these cases are found in a period when baptisms were not recorded (in my examples, 14th to very early 16th Centuries), so there is no way to know if this is the correct explanation.
              Very good point. I would just be happy if there were some more specific indicators to suggest William fitz Nigel and William Dorée were brothers. The Doreys in particular seem to have enormous gaps in the continuity of their documentary record. I wouldn't doubt if the name had arisen independently multiple times in the region, with lineages fading into and out of existence before the documentary record can establish any continuity. But as things stand, this just seems a matter of speculation.

              On the plus side, I've assembled all the known or suspected FGC23343+ 67 mark haplotypes and noticed two interesting things:

              -In addition to Henderson, there is at least one other instance in the old Uí Ímhair patrimony: a fellow named Crennell (Crellin used interchangeably), almost certainly from the isle of Man. Derived from Mac Raghnaill, a Norse personal name.

              -An SAPP network chart replicates my findings--the fiz Gerard and Swift family's common ancestor immediately is preceded by the common ancestor with the Doreys, and then by that with the Hendersons. The path is definitely to England from Normandy from the Scottish islands.

              There's still some room for doubt as to how the others most likely connect. SAPP seems to have just mindlessly tacked everybody else on top of one another, resulting in the founder of FGC23343 at a TMRCA nearly 50% earlier than the date suggested by techniques dating the underlying SNPs. Plus, the genetic distances from the modal for those people beyond Henderson suggest really improbable mutation scenarios--like less than 1% probability. And the Henderson node could probably get pushed back a couple of generations, too--there's a large multi-step mutation at CDYb.

              The really exotic thing is that there are members of this lineage who appear to be living in the Basque country today. Not a complete surprise, given the distribution of the parent clade, Z209. But I expected to find a really ancient divergence with a long, meandering migration on the continent from Iberia to Denmark before commencing the more typical migration route from Norway to Shetland and then the Hebrides, etc.

              FGC23343 must have a very idiosyncratic story behind its spread. Like a Basque ship captain joining a viking band around Ireland or the Hebrides. If the seasonal fishing patterns documented from the late Middle Ages were not innovations, it's easy to see how such people could have come into contact. But it just doesn't fit with conventional notions about the ethnic composition of viking bands.
              Last edited by benowicz; 21st May 2018, 09:01 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                . . . FGC23343 must have a very idiosyncratic story behind its spread. Like a Basque ship captain joining a viking band around Ireland or the Hebrides. If the seasonal fishing patterns documented from the late Middle Ages were not innovations, it's easy to see how such people could have come into contact. But it just doesn't fit with conventional notions about the ethnic composition of viking bands.
                On the other hand, the Irish people's own legends about their earliest origins give prominence to a pirate people from the Mediterranean called the Fomorians. These vectors of cultural exchange are probably incredibly ancient. Like maybe even older than the Roman Empire, although they don't seem to have left much of a Y chromosomal footprint.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                  . . . FGC23343 must have a very idiosyncratic story behind its spread. Like a Basque ship captain joining a viking band around Ireland or the Hebrides. If the seasonal fishing patterns documented from the late Middle Ages were not innovations, it's easy to see how such people could have come into contact. But it just doesn't fit with conventional notions about the ethnic composition of viking bands.
                  On the other hand, there is this overview of viking activity in Spain carefully reconstructed from a melange of Christian and Muslim sources that suggests that the fleets responsible for the first incursions had previously been involved in the raids on the German Rhineland.

                  https://cjadrien.com/vikings-in-spain/

                  According to surname distribution maps, the EKA of the apparent FGC23343+ fellow named Honta is most likely near Bayonne, the base of this particular viking band until 986 A.D.

                  If instead, of my earlier theory, the true migratory pattern is actually from Scandinavia or Britain to Spain, this could account for the odd observed genetic distances, which make the relationship of the German FGC23343+ people to the primary "Ui Imhair" group scarcely distinguishable from that of the Basque people. Hard to be confident when the relationships are so remote and the sample size so small.

                  It would be an incredible irony, given the distribution of the parent clade Z209. Like bringing coals to Newcastle. But maybe not impossible.

                  The typical rule is to assume that the epicentre of a clade's original homeland correlates positively with the level of haplotype diversity, which, in the present scanty information environment, would be the Scottish isles. But against that we have to consider whether the Anglo-centric bias of the available databases could be skewing our results.

                  Maybe knowing Chalmers' genetic distance to the Gendron matches at 111 markers would be useful. The Gendron surname is concentrated along this same coast, in the Vendee, which, although significantly farther north than Bayonne, also experienced viking raids at this same time. Probably elements of the same viking bands operated in both theatres.

                  Comment


                  • Gendron

                    Hmm...interesting that Gendron has come up.
                    I've got some cousins from Michigan in the US and we've been trying to figure out how we're related and Gendron is the common surname amongst them but I've not yet figured out how I'm related to the Gendrons.

                    Comment


                    • Argh

                      And I don't know how I forgot...a few weeks ago my first 111 match (-3) showed up on ftdna. He was adopted but believes that his father's name was Johndrow. Which seems like it could be an Anglicization of Gendron.

                      Edit, I found one more email from them and they have various spelling of the name in their paperwork: Johndrow, Jaundreau, Jandro, Jandraw and ..... Gendron. The Gendron was born in Quebec in 1777.
                      Last edited by mpryon; 29th May 2018, 06:26 PM. Reason: update names

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mpryon View Post
                        And I don't know how I forgot...a few weeks ago my first 111 match (-3) showed up on ftdna. He was adopted but believes that his father's name was Johndrow. Which seems like it could be an Anglicization of Gendron.

                        Edit, I found one more email from them and they have various spelling of the name in their paperwork: Johndrow, Jaundreau, Jandro, Jandraw and ..... Gendron. The Gendron was born in Quebec in 1777.
                        That's very interesting. A little different than my initial expectations. I've sent you a private message with follow up questions, if you don't mind.

                        Comment


                        • Two points with relevance to the remote origin of FGC23343, and the apparent viking involvement of a subset thereof:


                          1. The ancestral clade Z209, judging from this heat map, is likely to have originated in the neighborhood of San Sebastian in Spain, on the Bay of Biscay, a center of the wide-ranging Medieval whaling expeditions discussed elsewhere.

                          https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

                          But at the 50% confidence level, FGC23343 is estimated to have arisen around 200 A.D. At that time, San Sebastian fell within the territory of the Varduli tribe, who believed to have spoken a Celtic, not a Basque language. In the modern era this place seems to be considered solidly Basque, but that is probably the result of a gradual process of acculturation that did not start until the 500's A.D. and may not have been substantially completed until the 1200's.

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varduli

                          The cousin clade M153, popularly described as the "Basque marker", in reality has a somewhat wider distribution, including the definitely Celtic Galicia region, and actually seems to be absent from Navarre, which was probably closer to the Basque Urheimat.

                          https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

                          2. There are odd annalistic references to seaborne raids against Vardulian territory in 455 and 459 A.D. by what could be credibly called "viking precursors". Extremely early, however, considering the Viking Age proper is not supposed to have begun until the late 700's.

                          http://www.gedevasen.dk/heruls.pdf


                          I find this article fascinating, but I'm yet not sure it's the basis for a confident extrapolation that the FGC23343 subset that includes FGC28370 entered into a "viking" social milieu through such contact.

                          -I don't know the reputation or credentials of this author, Troels Brandt, though much of the information he cites seems to be verified by independent sources.

                          -The identity of the "Eruli" described in the contemporary sources is up for debate. That author's discussion is very brief, and he doesn't describe the basis for his calling these raiders Eruli, or specifically state where they were based. It is by no means clear that the modern interpretation, that they were a northern branch of the much better documented Heruli, is correct.


                          I guess what I am offering is the extremely tentative suggestion that the ancestor of FGC23343 may have been a Vardulian Celt, and that the ancestors of the Scottish and English branches could have arrived there through a very indirect route including Scandinavia, beginning with a slaving expedition against San Sebastian in the 400's A.D.

                          It may also be of interest to the two currently identified German FGC23343+ families that the Heruli are also described as being active in the Rhineland. So the possibilities may not be restricted to a narrow scenario involving the Great Heathen Army, as discussed earlier.

                          As a side note, but probably with interesting implications for the history of FGC23343 in the Scottish islands, there are two other families (Hutchinson and Burgar) in the Shetland DNA project, other than Henderson, who seem likely to be FGC23343+. None of them are close matches to Henderson, and none report haplotypes longer than 25 markers, so this is very speculative. But all of them have DYS458>17, which is one of the markers distinguishing FGC23343 from the modal for the ancestral clade Z209. And one of them, Burgar, like Henderson, has roots in Dunrossness parish, although there is some speculation that their earlier history is in Orkney. In any event, the etymology of the name seems to be some Scandinavian-derived farm name, rather than some origin further afield.

                          Comment


                          • Just found this thread.

                            Hello, I am FGC23343.
                            Vincent documentation shows we came from Dumfriesshire and family lore places us in Daneland earlier. I share more in common with the 'German' branch than the English branches.

                            The Viking/Spanish connection is an interesting one and one i will be following. I figured FGC23343 and its parent ZZ40 were a tribe of Ostrogoths based on Geographic distributions and historical records of the movements of the Ostogoth tribe during Roman times and that these Ostrogoths adopted the local customs... Viking or Vardulian. My family lore has it that the Teutonic Knights took Kiel and my family moved to the British Isles in the 1300's from Kiel.

                            Genaologically speaking, finding concrete evidence of my line with the name John Vincent in the 1600s England/Scotland timeframe is a needle in the proverbial haystack. I am close to linking the Norman Knight D'Awbernon's family, King Harold, and the Daneland refugee Miles Vincent directly to my line. The English Civil War no doubt had an affect on the record keeping of the time.

                            Best regards,
                            Sean Deven Vincent
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • Thanks, Sean.

                              Although FGC23343 seems to be a relatively young clade--TMRCA about 1,800 years ago--it doesn't have a very coherent geographic distribution. As a descendant of ZZ40, this lineage must have passed through Vardulian territory at some point early in its history, but the genetic distances make it seem as if dispersed shortly thereafter.

                              A computer generated networking chart of the STR haplotypes strongly suggests a path from the Scottish islands to Normandy and then England for the FGC28370 branch of FGC23343. This is remarkably consistent with the documentary record of the Gerard family of Ince, Lancashire, who are quite likely descendants of the Neel viscounts of Saint Sauveur.

                              Some members of this group, especially the Edgeworths of Edgeworthstown, Co. Longford and the Garnetts of Bunbury, Cheshire, have very strong paper trails linking them to this very Gerard family. There are also people named Gerard in this group, but perhaps ironically, their paper trail is not nearly as strong as the others. In context it seems a very reasonable speculation to assume that this FGC28370 signature is properly considered to belong to the Gerard family, but there just isn't any strong contemporary documentation to reinforce the link.

                              Do the Vincents have a very robust paper trail back to Europe, or are they in a similar situation to these Gerards, brick walling in the 18th century?

                              With regard to the networking chart, the Vincents seem to be in a very similar situation to most FGC23343 branches, with no clear relationship to one another. Given their genetic distance to the mean, I'm inclined to theorize that they may have branched off from the stem earlier than most other branches, though given the great lengths of time we are talking about, that is only a very loose speculation.

                              There are a few confirmed or highly suspected FGC23343 with strong roots along the Bay of Biscay, adjacent to but not necessarily within what is traditionally considered Basque country, such as Saintonge, France, historically a center of Huguenot activity. Closer to the ZZ40 homeland, I'd expect them to have a higher-than-average genetic distance to the FGC23343 mean than the younger British or German branches, and I think that's what I see.

                              A lot of Huguenots ended up in North America through British-assisted immigration schemes, but some descendants probably ended up in Louisiana and surrounding states when the British ethnically cleansed the Acadians from Nova Scotia. There were a lot of varied strands to French migration to Canada, but they did include Huguenots forcibly exiled as part of state sponsored religious persecution.

                              Do you think there's any chance that the Vincents may have a more recent French origin? Relatively speaking, Vincent is a much more common surname in France than in England. Really, we'd need to have a much larger database of FGC23343+ Big Y participants to reach strong conclusions, but that's probably not happening any time soon.

                              Comment


                              • Regarding Vincents

                                Being that I am in the Vincent name project, Vincents living in the United States, there has been 4 provably distinct Vincent genetic lines that came across from Europe. I-M253 R-M198, R-L1 and E-L117. I am the outlier. The more french Vincenot line are R-M198.

                                The paper trail for my line of Vincents goes as far as Dumfrieshire 1748 with the Birth of Joseph Vincent. John was his father. I lose track of John and may need to hire a British genealogy pro to sort through the British records of the 1600s. Joseph bought land after the revolutionary war in the Shenandoah Valley and the Vincents lived there until the Civil War. It was at that time alot of my Vincent line moved west to Kentucky, Missouri and even further west to Oregon.

                                There is a strong Scandinavian presence in the Vincent name project as well as french. All of us that are in the project, the American and Australian Vincents, are having a difficulties once traced back to Europe, even the Vincenots. One Vincent line in the United States trace their decedancy back to the 1600's in Virginia another line of Vincents trace back to Somerset, Maryland and the Cornwall area of England in the 1500's.

                                The surname Vincent is a title, not necessarily a genetic lineage. Though the title was passed on as a last name.

                                From my big book of family lore (a photocopied family bible that burned in the 1970s), Francis Vincent was an English knight in the 1500's and the first Vincent to live in England was Miles Vincent, from Kiel, Daneland at the time (or Denmark) fleeing the Teutonic/German incursion in the 1300's. This would be more consistent with me being more related to the german branch of FGC23343 after a Carolingian expansion.

                                I am not opposed to a Huguenot background but what information I have uncovered, it does not show any French background in my line. (That could be proven otherwise in the future, i am open to new information). Future testing with more french information in Aquitaine, Brittany and Normandy would provide additional information. More information is always welcome, and I will be interested what the future holds.

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