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  • #91
    I think one of the areas of this latest hypothesis that deserves attention is the dating of the life of the original Gerard. Some of these dates seem a bit of a stretch.

    For example, Ormerod dates the earliest charters mentioning Gerard's name--only by reference to his son, William, though--occur in the reign of King John, ended 1216. He also strongly implies, on what grounds I do not know, that the "avunculus" charter was issued by the Roger, son of Robert II de Montalt, who died in 1232. This seems to make sense to me, since another charter to William, son of Gerard was issued by (a) Robert de Montalt.

    But in the pedigree on page 131, Ormerod implies that Emma, daughter of Richard de Kingsley, the widow of the grantee of the 1232 charter, William fitz Gerard, was still alive in 1260 (44 Henry III) or even 1317 (10 Edward II). A bit of a stretch, to say the least, since the birth of that particular Roger de Montalt (~1165) brackets range of possible birth years for William fitz Gerard to between ~1130 and ~1165.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=dI...ley%22&f=false

    Elsewhere in this same book, Ormerod implies that the nuptials of Emma's sisters, married into the Done and Thornton families, took place around 1216.

    Honestly, I think Ormerod may be confusing 2 or even 3 distinct individuals here, and possibly making some unwarranted inferences from the mere mention of these individuals' names. There are no details provided on these documents beyond a date and in some cases the name of the archive in which they were deposited (e.g., "plea rolls"), so it's impossible to feel very confident.

    One thing that may contribute to the confusion is the apparent fact that the William, son of Gerard Ormerod lists as marrying Emma de Kingsley was succeeded in turn by two consecutive Williams. If the family had already begun to use "fitz Gerard" as an hereditary surname, instead of a mere ephemeral patronymic, some confusion would be expected.

    At the moment, I suspect that it was the 2nd, not the 1st William "fitz Gerard" who married Emma de Kingsley, but I haven't altered my copy of this hypothetical pedigree accordingly in part because I don't want to stray too far from my sources without more concrete evidence, but also because I'm not sure it would have an obvious effect on my conclusion regarding the agnatic origins of the Gerard family.

    Comment


    • #92
      Results

      That was insanely fast, I got my results last night. The problem is, I've no idea how to interpret them.

      FGC28370 A-


      -m


      edit: I think their FAQ tells me that I'm negative for FGC28370, correct?
      Last edited by mpryon; 20th April 2018, 12:11 PM. Reason: new info...

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by mpryon View Post
        That was insanely fast, I got my results last night. The problem is, I've no idea how to interpret them.

        FGC28370 A-


        -m


        edit: I think their FAQ tells me that I'm negative for FGC28370, correct?
        I think so.

        https://www.yseq.net/faq.php

        "6. How can I tell if I'm ancestral (=negative) or derived (=positive) for a certain SNP?
        Go to the table of your results and check the allele column on the very right side. It shows the DNA base (A,G,C or T) that you have at the SNP position and a little plus (+) or minus (-) sign behind it. Plus means that you are derived for that SNP and minus means that you are ancestral.
        last updated - 2015-10-01 15:04:50"

        Comment


        • #94
          M8988

          I I do appear to be positive for M8988. Although I've never heard of it.

          They seem to have done a few for free.


          free A8881 ChrY 7663164 7663164 G-
          free A14464 ChrY 7663095 7663095 G-
          free BY25715 ChrY 7663097 7663097 G-
          free BZ3749 ChrY 7663222 7663222 A-
          FGC28370 ChrY 7663000 7663000 A-
          free M8988 ChrY 7663056 7663056 C+
          free Y17866 ChrY 7663328 7663328 C-
          free Y25799 ChrY 7663264 7663264 A-
          free Y37459 ChrY 7663097 7663097 G-
          free Y84219 ChrY 7663025 7663025 C-
          free Y136502 ChrY 7663287 7663287 C-
          free Z3947 ChrY 7663153 7663153 C-
          free Z5232 ChrY 7663077 7663077 A-
          free Z7679 ChrY 7663155 7663155 T-
          free Z39650 ChrY 7663187 7663187 G-

          Comment


          • #95
            Interesting. Can't say as I've ever heard of M8988 before, either.

            Here is what Genetic Homeland has to say about it.

            https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...8&chromosome=Y

            Pretty dry technical details I don't really understand. Looks like it's only the location and the chemical value.

            It doesn't seem to have been integrated into YFull, either.

            https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z272/


            I wonder if it's been newly discovered.

            YSeq didn't provide you with any additional info, did they? Like an estimated age, at least?


            Given your comments earlier about STR matches with name variants of Gendron, I wonder if it's a continental, rather than Scottish SNP.

            Comment


            • #96
              At the risk of making this chart even busier, I've decided to include two other relevant details:

              1. The descent of Lagmann mac Gofraid, the one member of the Ui Imair dynasty that I am aware was definitely known to have made his way to Normandy.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagmann_mac_Gofraid

              In my hypothesis, I make the Neel family of Saint Sauveur descendants of Lagmann's cousin, Gluniairn, because the latter was much more closely associated with Iona and the northern Ui Neill dynasties, circumstantially indicated by the Saint Sauveur family history, even though I'm unaware of any direct evidence that Gluniairn went to Normandy.

              2. I include the detail that Eustace fitz John, by his 1st marriage, was ancestor to the de Vescy lords of Rotherham.

              We would need to be extraordinarily lucky to ever figure out the common ancestor between the two wings of the currently identified core FGC28370+ group, since the predicted MRCA at the 50% confidence level is so remote--~1350 A.D. But having already tentatively traced Flower Swift to the Northleach, Gloucestershire branch of the "rich mercer's" family, it may be a clue worth marking.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustace_fitz_John

              http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...0&postcount=57

              This line of de Vescys failed in the male line at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, but his widow lived on unto the 1340s, after which the properties fell into the hands of remote cadets through the female line.

              https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...al/nUpJYntJICM

              Coincidentally, his widow was related to the same de Mowbray family that the fitz Gerards' de Montalt cousins had married into in an earlier generation.

              Important information, but maybe of limited direct importance. Under the current theory, it's possible that some fitz Gerard cousins to the de Vescys settled around Rotherham in some sort of property management role, and eventually gave rise to the rich mercer's family. During much of their tenure, the de Vescys were preoccupied with adventures in Ireland, Scotland, and the crusades.
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #97
                Another striking piece of circumstantial evidence. Half of the island of Guernsey belonged to the earls of Chester from 1120, presumably until 1232, when that line died out. The other half had previously belonged to the Neel family of Saint Sauveur. Page 37.

                https://books.google.com/books?id=BX...ter%22&f=false

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranulf...arl_of_Chester

                The earliest fully documented ancestor of the Dorey family was born on Jersey around 1806, although I believe he lived primarily on Guernsey.

                I'd been having some difficulty in reconciling Dorey's genetic distance to the Gerard/Garnett/Edgeworth wing of FGC28370 to the Swift wing, but one plausible scenario is that the Doreys branched off prior to the Gerard/Swift split, with the 50% to 95% confidence interval for the birth of their MRCA lying between roughly 1280 and 1150 A.D.

                The 3rd baron of Halton--who I am hypothesizing was a close collateral agnatic ancestor of the core FGC28370+ people, as well as a descendant of the Neel family--supposedly died in Normandy in 1150. Also remember that the barons of Halton were constables of the earldom of Chester.
                Last edited by benowicz; 23rd April 2018, 11:21 AM.

                Comment


                • #98
                  The history of the fiefs in Guernsey seems a little complicated to me--I think the 4th earl of Chester may have forfeited his holdings on Guernsey during the civil war, around 1153, although he retained the majority of his English holdings. Maybe this obliquely alludes to the circumstances of the death of the 3rd baron of Halton in Normandy around this time?

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranulf...arl_of_Chester

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halton_(barony)

                  Thereafter, it was granted to the Wac family, who held it until around 1240.

                  But there may have been enduring relationships between Guernsey and the following of the earls of Chester. The Wacs themselves, and several of their followers, seem to have been tenants of the earls of Chester in England and Normandy.

                  Maybe significant for us is that what may be the earliest reference to the Dorey family (i.e., "Will(elmus) Doree") occurs in an 1174 charter of the Wac family at Esturville, near modern Bouteville. This place is pretty close to the modern hameau of Dorey, in Montaigu-la-brisette. Pages 67 & 68.

                  https://books.google.com/books?id=61...tentin&f=false

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                    The history of the fiefs in Guernsey seems a little complicated to me--I think the 4th earl of Chester may have forfeited his holdings on Guernsey during the civil war, around 1153, although he retained the majority of his English holdings. Maybe this obliquely alludes to the circumstances of the death of the 3rd baron of Halton in Normandy around this time?

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranulf...arl_of_Chester

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halton_(barony)

                    Thereafter, it was granted to the Wac family, who held it until around 1240. . . .

                    Here we come very close to the matter. William fitz Nigel, so-called 2nd baron of Halton, and in my hypothesis, direct agnatic ancestor of the core FGC28370+ people, was married to Agnes, daughter of Gilbert de Gand, and the Wac family also married into the de Gands.

                    https://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi...ghlin&id=P5324

                    Page 114.

                    https://books.google.com/books?id=oW...istory&f=false


                    These claims can be found repeated by other, more rigorous interpreters of history, but I chose these two for the sake of convenience and the clarity with which they illustrate the fundamental relationship. J. Patrick Greene refers in passing to William fitz Nigel as "cousin" to Walter de Gant of Lincolnshire. Page 2.

                    https://books.google.com/books?id=70...q=Gant&f=false

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                      Here we come very close to the matter. William fitz Nigel, so-called 2nd baron of Halton, and in my hypothesis, direct agnatic ancestor of the core FGC28370+ people, was married to Agnes, daughter of Gilbert de Gand, and the Wac family also married into the de Gands. . . .
                      Then again, probably not.

                      http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGL...ClareMHughWake

                      It seems that some writers have confused the de Clare family of Lincolnshire, with whom the Wac family intermarried, for the de Gant family, earls of Lincoln, one of whom, Agnes, married William fitz Nigel, so-called 2nd baron Halton. Completely separate.

                      Still, as pointed out earlier, some legacy connections between the retinue of the earls of Chester seem to have lingered on into the Wac regime from the 1150s. So that must mean something.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                        . . . Still, as pointed out earlier, some legacy connections between the retinue of the earls of Chester seem to have lingered on into the Wac regime from the 1150s. So that must mean something.
                        Okay, now that I've had a chance to find transcriptions of some of the original Latin documents, I think that some other authors may have over-simplified the situation, and that the earls of Chester and their heirs may have retained a direct interest in Guernsey until the 1240s, and that the Wac family were merely their local vassals. For example, page 177:

                        https://books.google.com/books?id=N9...lla%22&f=false

                        That is part of an inventory of property rights under the late English regime, taken in 1220 by Philip II of France after his conquest of Normandy in 1204. Kind of a mini-version of the Domesday book, but focused on the prior rather than current regime.

                        Anyhow, it states, rather bluntly, that Estouvilla (modern Éturville, a constituent part of Carquebut, in the Cotentin), was held as a fief by the Boutevilain family from the earl of Chester as late as 1204.

                        https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carquebut

                        But, prior to 1174, about a generation earlier, there is a charter showing that the Wac brothers held a mansion house in Éturville, previously held by a man named Willelmus Doree (Dorey?).

                        The Wacs have previously been shown to have been direct tenants of the earls of Chester in Wahull, Northamptonshire, around 1130.

                        The channel islands were never conquered by Phillip II, but Éturville is reasonably nearby on the Cotentin peninsula. This pattern of dealings suggests to me that on Guernsey, documents which merely illustrate a change in the occupation of a property among the various followers of the earl of Chester were misinterpreted to indicate a passage of ownership. It would have been weird for king Stephen in the 1150's to let Ranulph of Chester retain most of his properties but confiscate Guernsey, only to regrant it to a vassal of Ranulph's.

                        Plus, having the earliest known document of the Dorey family refer to a fief of the earl of Chester is a huge bonus.
                        Last edited by benowicz; 24th April 2018, 09:13 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Two other pieces of information that probably reinforce the "fitz Gerard" hypothesis for the core FGC28370+ people:

                          1. The pedigree of the Edgeworths of Edgeworthstown only goes back with any certainty to the early 1500s. The precise relationship isn't clear, but they are connected in some way to the clergyman Roger Edgeworth, born at Holt Castle.

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Edgeworth

                          At the time of Roger's birth, Holt Castle was the property of Sir William Stanley, whose brother-in-law, Sir Richard Molyneux of Sefton, married, as his 2nd wife, a daughter of Sir Gilbert Gerard of Ince.

                          http://www.luminarium.org/encycloped...iamstanley.htm

                          http://www.historyofparliamentonline...rd-i-1559-1623

                          Like the Edgeworths, this branch of the Gerard family was active in the colonial administration in Dublin.

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...t_Baron_Gerard

                          2. I believe that the earliest fully documented ancestors of the Garnett donor were living at Swanlow, Cheshire from the late 1500s.

                          https://books.google.com/books?id=YU...ton%22&f=false

                          Swanlow was purchased between 1542 and 1546 by Sir Thomas Holcroft, brother-in-law of this same Sir Gilbert Gerard of Ince.

                          http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

                          https://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi...&id=I6534Gi92a
                          Last edited by benowicz; 30th April 2018, 12:59 PM.

                          Comment


                          • I think I successfully resolved the ambiguous relationship of the Dorey haplotype to the modal Gerard/Garnett/Edgworth (i.e., GD 11 at 67) and to the modal Swift (i.e., GD 8 at 67, with a minimum of GD 6 at 67 against one member) haplotypes.

                            YFull's methodology estimates FGC28370 at 500 years old at the 50% confidence level, and my STR analysis--with all caveats about the potential skewing effect of lineage over-representation--says about 600 years, or 20 generations between the two proven FGC28370 branches (i.e., Swift and Gerard/Garnett/Edgeworth).

                            But comparing Dorey to all the others returns an equilibrium TMRCA (i.e., where the median confidence level approximates 50%) of 24 generations.

                            So when attempting to map the most likely relationship on a tree, Dorey should branch off before Swift branches off from Gerard/Garnett/Edgeworth. In other words, I should compare the Dorey haplotype to a modal derived from a comparison of the Swift modal and the Gerard/Garnett/Edgeworth modals.

                            I used McGee's Y Utility for this, but some manual intervention was required to better resolve ambiguous situations where there is no clear natural modal in the data presented. McGee defaults by assuming the larger count is the modal value, but I have over-ridden this by assuming the value closest to the overall FGC23343 modal (derived WITHOUT reference to the Gerard/Garnett/Edgeworth and Swift folks) is correct.

                            The result of this process returned about a 500 year gap between the MRCA Dorey shared with this group and the split between the Gerard/Garnett/Edgeworth folks. This would place, at the 50% confidence level, the birth date of the MRCA with Dorey at about 1050 A.D. In other words, just about the time of the Norman conquest of England, and thus probably more consistent with the alleged Norman origin of the fitz Gerard family, than the Doreys having arrived in the Channel Islands from later English migration.

                            On the face of the raw STR data, the relationship of Dorey to the others was odd and had to be resolved in an orderly way in order to gain any kind of interpretive confidence. It's not perfect, but perfection wouldn't be possible with this odd data. Clearly, some level of convergence has occurred. But at least this method is conceptually sound.

                            Comment


                            • So here is an updated chart, to incorporate everything I've learned to date, and correct some earlier typos. It's a little busy, but I think it might necessary to encompass it all, especially the Hebridean branches of this family which stayed behind. They could be useful points of reference in assessing this theory's validity going forward, as DNA matches accumulate.

                              P.S. It may seem weird to show both William Fitz Nigel, 2nd baron Halton, and William Dorée as sons of Néel II and Adèle de Reviers, but it is technically possible. The much-quoted charter dated 1060 A.D. confirming some church donations in Guernsey clearly listed two distinct sons named William, an odd but not unheard of practice in Medieval times.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by benowicz; 12th May 2018, 01:15 PM.

                              Comment


                              • In case you were wondering about the curious distribution of FGC23343 along what are usually considered viking migration routes, given the heavily Iberian concentration of the ancestral clade, Z209:

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...te-Urzainqui-2

                                https://rud.is/cod/the-basque-and-vikings.html

                                http://dodona.proboards.com/thread/7...-viking-origin


                                So not only is there reason to believe Scandinavians were in regular contact with the Basque country at the very dawn of the viking age, but there is documentary evidence that Basques were renown for their feats of navigation well beforehand.

                                If anyone here can access a magnified copy of the map in the wikipedia article, and can come upon a translation of the Basque captions, I would be very grateful. It seems to indicate specific (archaelogical? documentary?) evidence that early Basque mariners had a presence in Shetland and the Scottish isles.

                                Comment

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