No announcement yet.

Viking FGC23343

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • More on the Patry family.

    Originally posted by benowicz View Post
    . . . 2. The Caen-based de Rosel family seem to have been closely intermarried with the Tesson and La Lande Patry families that William de Rollos, son of Richard II, locked horns with around 1200 A.D.


    The dispute was over ownership of an hereditary interest in Chênedollé near Vire, implying that William de Rollos shared some ancestry with that particular Raoul Tesson or his wife, who as one of the La Lande Patrys. The connections among these old aristocratic families are dense and complex, so I can't vouch for the completeness or accuracy of any of the online pedigrees, but that second link must be somewhere near the truth because an abstract of yet another donation charter of the Caen-based de Rosel family mentions the marriage with a Robert Patry/Patrix in this same time frame. Page 87.

    3. Evidence from the Liber Niger of the English Exchequer, dated around 1166 A.D. also hints at this relationship of the La Lande Patry family with the Caen-based de Rosels specifically.

    This entry from Nottinghamshire shows a Patricus de Rosel as a vassal of Roger de Burun.

    The La Lande Patry family is well studied, and it seems pretty uncontroversial that they derived their name from either a place or a person named Patrick, a pretty rare name at that date in Normandy. The standard line is that this family were one of those Hiberno-Norse lineages that migrated to Normandy in the late 900's A.D., although I don't know if this name is the sole piece of evidence in support. . . .

    This seems like it could be on the right track. Patrick was a pretty unusual name for Medieval Normandy, but so was Vincent. In 1141 A.D., Guillaume "William" II Patry founded a priory at La Lande-Patry that was a satellite of the Abbey of Saint Vincent at Le Mans.

    Of course I'm trying to draw a connection of some kind to that other FT372222+ family, the Vincents of Virginia, USA. That's kind of rough because as far as I'm aware, there is no contemporary documentation clearly stating their European home, but their common SNP status with the Saddington family, and the early association in England of the Vincent surname, as well as the Saddingtons, with the de Mowbrays and de Vassys at Barningham, Richmondshire seems like it could mean something. The earliest known ancestor of the Barningham Vincents was a Stephen, son of Vincent, who flourished some time before 1200 A.D.

    The affiliation of the Patry family with Le Mans, which is outside of the borders of Normandy, is kind of mysterious. The deep roots of FGC23343 almost certainly lie in France, but much further south than Le Mans, on the border with Spain. So it's difficult to know which scenario would be *less* improbable for the Patrys--Basques being recruited by the so-called Loire viking bands and retreating with them to Ireland before settling in Western Normandy in the late 900s A.D., or Basques wandering up to Le Mans during this same time frame without any clear historical context encouraging to do so, and only coincidentally adopting an Irish name along the way.

    As far as I can tell, the earliest known Patry was a semi-famous fellow who puts in a brief appearance during the drama that led to the Norman Conquest of England. According to the historian Wace, Guillaume "William" I Patry met Harold Godwinson when his ship crashed on the Norman coast.

    Guillaume I Patry was a close follower of William the Conqueror, and there are several contemporary charters corroborating this fact. So the idea that the Patrys first became acquainted with Le Mans in the decade of the 1070s A.D., when the Conqueror led a punitive expedition there seems very plausible.

    I'm not really aware of any confirmed use of the names Vincent or Stephen in the Patry family, so this is maybe kind of speculative. But in theory, the relative infrequency of the name Vincent, the Patry's associations with that Abbey at Le Mans, as well as the de Rollos landed interest at Rosel, Caen could mean something. The time frame works out.

    The coat of arms attributed to the Patry family here is nearly identical to the primary form of the Vincent family arms--three quatrefoils argent, only on a background of gules instead of azure.

    Elsewhere I've suggested that the Stoke d'Abernon Vincents may have derived their heraldry from the Bardolf family of Richmondshire, who were among the earliest overlords of the Vincent family at Barningham. Heraldic practice doesn't seem to have been very standardized at this point in history, so maybe this is reading too much into what is essentially a coincidence. But it's still a very interesting coincidence.

    Also there is the Patry fief of "Groci" mentioned on page 261 of that book discussing the St. Vincent satellite established at La Lande. Could it be another version of Gruchy, Rosel, Latinized as "Groceio", as discussed a couple posts back?

    There seems to have been an extended scholarly article written about the origins of the Patry family in 1996, but so far I've not been able to access a copy. I've only seen some passing citations.

    Les Patry de la Lande: un lignage celto-scandinave (XIe-XIIIe s.) Louise, Gérard. (1996) - In: Le pays bas-normand vol. 222/223 (1996) p. 5-27
    Last edited by benowicz; 12 October 2021, 02:14 PM.


    • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
      . . . There seems to have been an extended scholarly article written about the origins of the Patry family in 1996, but so far I've not been able to access a copy. I've only seen some passing citations.

      Les Patry de la Lande: un lignage celto-scandinave (XIe-XIIIe s.) Louise, Gérard. (1996) - In: Le pays bas-normand vol. 222/223 (1996) p. 5-27
      Found a summary of the genealogical findings of this paper.

      Nothing super-amazing in there, but there is a useful reminder that the Patry family were patrons of the abbaye at Savigny-le-vieux, on the border between Normandy and Brittany. Found a couple on-line abstracts of relevant charters, dated roughly to the 2nd half of the 12th century--shortly before the ancestors of the Vincent family appear in Richmondshire. Nothing special in the content.

      But it may be useful to remember that among the founders of that Abbey were the family of the Earls of Richmond, and that the Earls made frequent, large donations to the abbey. So did the Earls' kinsmen, the Bardolph family of Ravensworth, who were the immediate overlords of the Vincent family at Barningham.

      The Bardolphs were also patrons of the church of St. Patrick at Patrick Brompton, so there's maybe another oblique reference to the Patry family.

      So I guess there is a line of historical continuity to be drawn between the Hiberno-Norse families of the Cotentin and the FT372222 families of Vincent and Saddington whose early ancestors are documented in Richmondshire. The Bardolph and de Rollos families crossed paths many times, including the witness of Richard I de Rollos to the wedding of Ralph, son of Ribald to Agatha de Brus, kinsman of Acaris Bardolph in the 1150s A.D.


      • If this is true, it could be very powerful evidence--circumstantial though it may be--that the FT372222+ Vincent family represent a branch of the Patry family of La Lande, near Flers in Normandy, and Patrixbourne in Kent.

        The deal is that historian Colin Flight believes the ownership history of the estates of Banstead, Co. Surrey and Ash and Ryarsh, Co. Kent provide convincing evidence that Mabel, the wife of Nigel de Mowbray was a member of this specific Patry family. Remember, Roger de Mowbray, son of this same Nigel, held an interest in Saddington, Leicestershire and Barningham, Richmondshire (where the most prominent family named Vincent was first recorded) around the turn of the 13th century. The de Rollos ancestors of the FT372222+ Saddington family were definitely neighbors of this particular branch of the Patry family in Normandy, and even became involved in some property disputes with them. Flight believes that there is sufficient documentary evidence to show that the Banstead, Ash and Ryarsh estates, which most definitely belonged to the de Mowbrays in the early 1200s, were acquired by the Patry family after their former owner, Tirel de Manieres, forfeited during the rebellion of William Clito, around 1124 A.D.

        Unfortunately, I wasn't able to independently confirm the details regarding Tirel de Manieres. None of the sources I was able to find online go into such granular detail. They basically gloss over the period between Domesday and the de Mowbray's ownership. But Flight's work is extensively footnoted, and has been published in the journal of the Kent Archaeological Society, so on that basis alone it inspires more confidence than the numerous online pedigrees I've seen for this family, which continue to cite now-debunked theories involving the families of the Earls of Clare and Salisbury. So while I'm excited about this, it's not exactly a done deal.

        Still, it can't be denied that the pattern of associations with the ancestors of FT372222+ surnames with the de Mowbrays and Patrys grows considerably tighter and denser.
        Last edited by benowicz; 13 October 2021, 09:54 PM.


        • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
          A couple of additional charters with circumstantial evidence that allows us to further fill out the pedigree:

          1. Richard I de Rollos, fl. 1150, lord of Roullours, Cant. Vire and La Bloutiere, Cant. Villedieu-les-Poêles
          2. Godfrey [de Rollos?], referenced in 1230 novel disseisin proceedings for Saddington
          3. Richard de Saddington fl. 1195, possibly identical with the Richard fils Godfrey from the 1229/30 A.D. novel disseisin proceedings
          4. a. John 'fils Richard' de Saddington/de Welham m. Joan de Martival, from this notice and the charter at Mowsley ~1270 A.D. published by John Nicholls in 'History and Antiquities of Leicestershire'
          4. a. 1.) Almeric de Saddington, ditto
          4. a. 2.) Roger de Saddington, from a different charter at Mowsley dated 1285 A.D.
          4. a. 3.) Sir Richard de Saddington, vicar of Weldon, Northamptonshire (a Basset property) from a charter dated 1303 A.D., w/ his grandfather perhaps erroneously given as 'Robert', unless Sir Richard should be reclassed as 4. c. 1.)
          4. b. Thomas de Welham, protagonist of the 1229/1230 A.D. proceedings and referred to once as "de Saddington" in an undated charter near Bruntingthorpe
          4. b. 1.) Roger de Saddington, in the Bruntingthorpe charters and Nicholl's ~1270 A.D. charter at Mowsley
          4. b. 2.) William de Saddington
          4. b. 2.) a.) William de Saddington, from a charter at Bruntingthorpe dated 1285 A.D., possibly identical with a clergyman of this same name mentioned in several Northamptonshire documents around this time
          4. b. 2.) b.) John de Saddington ?, ditto
          4. b. 2.) b.) i.) Lord Chancellor Robert de Saddington? d. after 1347 A.D.; some of the lands held by this branch of the family seem to have passed through Robert's daughter to the Hastings family
          4. b. 2.) c.) Thomas de Saddington, from a charter dated 1312 A.D. at Weldon, Northamptonshire? Not sure of his placement in this pedigree, but I believe that 4. b. 2.) a.) William had a brother named Thomas, also a clergyman


          Not really sure which of these specifically leads to Adam de Saddington of Foxton from the 1327 A.D. lay subsidy rolls, but it's clear that there are multiple candidates contemporary with Lord Chancellor Robert. Based on the passage of the Bruntingthorpe estates to the Hastings family, maybe one of the sons of John 4. a. is more likely; they seem to be the junior, or at least less prominent lines.
          Elsewhere I hypothesized that the de Saddington presence at Welham might be attributable to Richard I de Saddington (i.e., # 3) marrying into the Basset family who became sole tenants-in-chiefs before the mid-13th century. Certainly Thomas de Welham/Saddigton (#4.b.) served as legal representative of one of the Bassets. That may be, but there is another possibility that ties in closely to the hypothesis that the Vincent family of Barningham, Yorkshire was a branch of the family of Patry de La Lande Patry, near Flers in Normandy.

          In the Leicestershire Survey of 1130 A.D., Henry de Port of Basing, sheriff of Hampshire, held 2 of the ~8 carucates reported at Welham from the Archbishop of York. It seems a bit mysterious, breaking a pretty strong geographic pattern vis-a-vis the distribution of his estates, but it is a fact.

          The de Port family were an integral party of that clannish network of Lower Norman families that included the Patrys, the de Rollos ancestors of the de Saddingtons, and their de Mowbray overlords. I just noticed now that the report of historian Colin Flight that I posted earlier indicates that a daughter of sheriff Henry de Port's brother, Hugh de Port of Kent, married as his 2nd wife, William IV Patry, who was the father of both Mabel, mother of Roger de Mowbray of Thirsk ( and at least temporarily, Saddington and Barningham) and Matilda/Maude, mother of the Raoul V Tesson who was involved in a property dispute with William de Rollos around 1204 A.D.


          Maybe significant to the over-arcing narrative of FT372222 as a Basque clade arriving in Normandy in the late 900s A.D. along with the vikings based in Ireland who raided Aquitaine in the 800s A.D., the de Ports also married into the family of the Neel viscounts of St. Sauveur. Pretty surprising to me, because prior to their English property acquisitions after the Conquest, the de Ports were kind of a nothing sort of family, holding only a few small fiefs near Bayeux under the bishop.

          The de Rollos were in some way descended from the Bloet family whose estates clustered very near the Neel viscounts on the west coast of the Cotentin, where local toponymy suggests Hiberno-Norse colonization was most dense. And their members included a "Nigellus" or Neel Bloet, before they disappear from Norman records in the late 11th century. So maybe the Patrys and the Neels descended from a common viking settler ancestor? And that the de Rollos and Bloets before them were just a cadet branch of the Neels? STR and SNP mutation rates are still kind of controversial, so although my estimates of a MRCA born sometimes between 850 and 950 A.D. are a little more recent than those resulting from most proposed rates, they would fit in with this scenario pretty nicely.

          Maybe significant for future research, should that Channel Island Dorey guy ever confirm my projection of his SNP status, one branch of the de Ports assumed the surname St. John and became involved in Jersey politics. The St. Johns remained settled in Hampshire, but I imagine that's where a majority of English migration to the Channel Islands came from, so that could form the basis for a decent, historically grounded hypothesis of the Doreys' ancestry.

          Last edited by benowicz; 15 October 2021, 06:44 PM.