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  • If the clades came to the Cotentin around the 10th century. Historically speaking, the monastery and the campaigns of Charles Martel, Pepins son, would have some affect on the clades. Martel defeated Muslim incursions into Aquitaine at this time, I suspect in a way not dissimilar to the reconquista.....Concerning Martel, Battle of Tours is a famous battle, in which he consolidated the Frankish power. Pillaging and converting Aquitaine would cause christian movements into and out of the Cotentin and Brittany. So, perhaps a formation in Aquataine is completely plausible and movement north or south does not seem out of the realm of possibility. French Basque were much more inside muslim dominated areas at the time, and subjected to the Spanish reconquista. I suspect the clergy and my last name are intertwined, as it is a very Latinized last name. The clade being refuges of this inter Abrahamic fight, would explain better the seemingly disparate regions of western Europe each grouping find themselves.

    Vincent lineage is in my findings have been erased, and attempted to be unwritten from what i can tell. The mention of a Vincent selling Smeaton to the Queens consolidated holdings lessening the power of the planters is the only definitive piece of information I can find of Vincents in early England. It is soon after a Jacobin rebellion occurred and differing lines of Vincents were either imprisioned, sent to prison colonies, or reformed as the Queens loyalists. It is also at this time the first Vincents are mentioned in the colonies, men without a country. The American Vincents of my line, were not citizens of any nation until the United States won the revolution. I speculate 2 or more generations were here without citizenship.
    Thank you for the take on Neel Viscounts, and will take more of a look on my off time. as Vincent from what I was told, was a title from the old country.
    The story of this clade is indeed intrepid.

    Have a great 2021

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    • Oh, the Vincents.

      I took all this time to investigate the family of Great Smeaton, and came up with nothing originally, only to find out that the relevant documents used the antique spellings 'Vyncent' and 'Wyncent'. A pretty well respected historian, Plantagenet Harrison, gathered notes on the origins of the Vincent family of Barningham for his history of Yorkshire in the 19th century, and when I found this it put everything into perspective.

      Charters documenting donations of the Bardolf family of Ravensworth dating from the late 1100's A.D. make it clear that the de Barningham and Vincent families were of the same stock, and that they were sub-infeudated at Barningham by the Bardolfs, whose own lords were the de Mowbray family. That other FT372222+ family, the de Saddingtons, were a branch of the de Rollos, who had many feudal relationships--and I suspect a genealogical one as well--with these same de Mowbrays. This seems like pretty valuable information to me.

      There are so many garbled online pedigrees of the various gentry Vincent families that at one point I lost all hope of making any sense of them. But with the information from Harrison--a lot of which I was able to verify by collections of transcribed church cartularies--I now believe that all the best known Vincent families come of that same Barningham stock. In fact, the single best known Vincent family, the baronets of Stoke d'Abernon, bear arms clearly derived from those of the Bardolfs. And the Stoke d'Abernon family 100% definitely had connections with colonial Virginia through their Peyton in-laws who settled there in the 17th century.

      I guess the history of Great Smeaton is that the original earls of Richmond donated it to the Abbey of St. Mary at York, who in turn leased at least part of it to the de Colby family, originally of Wappentake Manley in Lincolnshire. The Vincent family seems to have divided their holdings at Barningham through successive generations to the point that when they acquired the de Colby holdings through marriage sometime in the 15th century, their holdings at Great Smeaton were far more significant. They increased the proportion of their ownership of Great Smeaton even further by buying from the Crown the remainder of the land held by St. Mary's upon the dissolution of the monasteries in the 16th century.

      The Vincents seem to have been considered minor gentry, but they did hold some important posts in the administration of the earldom of Richmond, and one member of that family parlayed his royal connections--the earldom of Richmond eventually passed to the Crown--into a job as chief collector of revenues for Poitou in France.

      I included links to those sources in earlier posts.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
        . . . The Vincents seem to have been considered minor gentry, but they did hold some important posts in the administration of the earldom of Richmond, and one member of that family parlayed his royal connections--the earldom of Richmond eventually passed to the Crown--into a job as chief collector of revenues for Poitou in France. . . .
        You know, this fact may account for an anomaly in the heraldry of the Vincents that I discussed in some earlier posts. I am aware of at least three very distinct coats of arms borne by Vincent families who I now believe were all of the same stock, originating at Barningham in the late 12th century.

        The first, "argent two bars gules and a canton of the second charged with a trefoil of the first", seems to be a play on the arms of the Lancaster family, a branch of which migrated to Richmondshire. Maybe there was a relationship to them by marriage, or maybe it was a more abstract reference to the assumption of the earldom of Richmond by John of Lancaster, brother of king Henry V in 1414. If so, it would be a very oblique allusion, since there was absolutely no genealogical relationship between John and the family who bore the surname Lancaster, whose holdings were mainly in far western Yorkshire and in Lancashire. In any event, it's about this time that I find the first references to members of the Vincent family of Barningham/Great Smeaton holding administrative posts in the earldom of Richmond.

        The second, "azure three trefoils argent (alternatively or)", is almost identical to the family of Bardolph of Ravensworth, immediate lords to the Vincents at Barningham, became far more widely used.

        The third, bearing a cross sarcelee, was granted in the late 17th century and is a complete anomaly--the patent granting them explicitly acknowledges that these were not those normally borne by the Vincent family, and in fact were derived from those of the de Colby family through whom the Vincents acquired their original interest in Great Smeaton.

        Although I now believe that the families bearing these are now of a single stock, a distinction seems to have been made whereby only the northern branches bore the first variant.

        Comment


        • Thank you for all the inquiries and work, on behalf of my branch and to the work on the larger family lines . It was more of a daunting task the more I looked into the possible branchings and pachwork of heraldry and stories.
          with the information from (Plantagenet) Harrison--a lot of which I was able to verify by collections of transcribed church cartularies--I now believe that all the best known Vincent families come of that same Barningham stock. In fact, the single best known Vincent family, the baronets of Stoke d'Abernon, bear arms clearly derived from those of the Bardolfs. And the Stoke d'Abernon family 100% definitely had connections with colonial Virginia through their Peyton in-laws who settled there in the 17th century.
          I thank you wholeheartedly for this information, and did some fiddling with the idea of being related to the baronets Stoke d'Abernon but never could link them to my line, perhaps this is the closest I may come. I want to thank Plantagenet Harrison for your revelations of the Vyncent variations.

          Poitou, France collector of Revenues was something I had not seen, but not out of the realm of duties for viscounts. Perhaps Piotou and not Cotentin is where we originated, but i digress. Heraldry while very informative to the trained eye was always something I just thought looked interesting. Having such meaning makes sense considering the education levels of the population at the time. I never had the training for such meanings and thought that they were more just familial window dressing. again thank you. Thank you for the hours put to this. thank you for the tireless effort and thank you for providing clarity.

          Thank you and have a wonderful 2021

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