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Viking FGC23343

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  • Re: the presence of FGC23343 in the Scottish islands, there is one well documented historic incident that probably bears mention, although in context, it seems doubtful that it constitutes some type of origin story: The wreck of El Gran Grifon on Fair Isle in 1588.

    Captained by Juan Gomez de Medina, El Gran Grifon, part of the famous Spanish Armada, wrecked off Fair Isle in late September, 5 months after their defeat off the southern coast of England and in a desperate condition. Fair Isle is the island immediately south of the Dunrossness district of the southern Shetland mainland where FGC23343 has been noted.

    Although the crew of El Gran Grifon is supposed to have been composed primarily of German mariners from the Baltic port where the ship was built, at least 4 of the military officers commanding the troops intended for a mainland invasion of England were from the Basque country of Spain. Presumably many of those troops were also Basque, which, at least superficially, seems like it could be significant given the deep Basque origins of FGC23343, although they lay much further north, on the edge of the old duchy of Gascony, in France.

    A detailed contemporary account of the subsequent fate of Gomez de Medina and crew survives, and it seem very unlikely that they mixed easily with the natives. Although there was a lengthy, 2 month delay between El Gran Grifon's wreck and their eventual transportation to Fife for judicial repatriation, they were objects of intense suspicion and monitored very carefully, as one would expect in the context. Upon their wreck, the survivors numbered about 300 armed and desperate men, and the inhabitants of Fair Isle probably numbered no more than 17 families. Military discipline seems to have been maintained throughout, for despite their strained condition--about 50 men are supposed to have died from starvation, illness--no incidents of violence against the natives were noted.

    Interesting, even if only as an example of the wide range of historical incidents which theoretically could give rise to such an anomalous geographic distribution for this SNP, although I don't think this specific event explains it.

    Comment


    • To my knowledge, that Dorey fellow from the old YSearch database had never been tested for FGC23343, so his apparent "near match" to some members of the FGC28369 could be an extreme example of STR convergence. Certainly there is some level of convergence going on, given the observed level of matching among the various members of the FGC28369 group--it's just a question of how extreme it is. The relationship could be as near as 1000 A.D.

      Anyhow, there is one reference to a Geoffrey Dory in the Testa de Neville, at Holland, Lincolnshire, within the honour of Albemarle.

      https://archive.org/details/liberfeo...1grea/page/548

      The Testa was compiled in 1302 based on records of nearly 100 years earlier, when the de Forz family from Oleron, France that I mentioned earlier were earls of Albemarle.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...l_of_Albemarle

      Also mentioned in that entry from the Testa were the de Gresley/de Grelley family of Lancashire, who shared an interest in Ecclestone, Lancashire with the Garnet family at this same time (i.e., Henry III).

      http://www.shissem.com/Hissem_Gernets_of_Halton.html


      For a long time now the Dorey name has been primarily found in the Channel Islands and across the way in Dorsetshire, and there probably is no particular reason to believe that either of those branches relate to this Lincolnshire family. But it is interesting, may be worth noting as a place to begin future research. The de Gresleys were from Avranches on the Cotentin peninsula, as were the d'Aubignys with whom the Garnets allied themselves early on, so maybe that will become significant vis-a-vis the earliest recorded Doreys at Etourville in Manche.

      Comment


      • Post-Viking Age, the trade routes from Saintonge (the region where FGC23343 seems to have expanded from) reached well beyond the Irish Sea, reaching its height under the Angevin dynasty, when the French region provided most of the wine and a large plurality of the pottery imported into Britain and even beyond into Scandinavia.

        But here is an interesting academic paper showing that there is robust archaeological evidence of mercantile connections between Saintonge and the Irish sea coasts, dating well before the Viking Age: "Travel, Transport and Communication to and from Ireland, c. 400–1100: an Archaeological Perspective",by Christopher Loveluck and Aidan O’Sullivan.

        https://books.google.com/books?id=dpwmDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT35&lpg=PT35&dq=Travel,+ Transport+and+Communication+to+and+from+Ireland,+c .+400%E2%80%931100:+an+Archaeological+Perspective+ Christopher+Loveluck+and+Aidan+O%E2%80%99Sullivan& source=bl&ots=1L8zwnLy-F&sig=ACfU3U3L1cZb2QwMTNhA7YHW_cezgeChLA&hl=en&p pi s=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjqmeSuk-jmAhUFV80KHYO2DFUQ6AEwBXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Trave l%2C%20Transport%20and%20Communication%20to%20and% 20from%20Ireland%2C%20c.%20400%E2%80%931100%3A%20a n%20Archaeological%20Perspective%20Christopher%20L oveluck%20and%20Aidan%20O%E2%80%99Sullivan&f=false

        There is even evidence for clinker-built ships in the Loire Valley before the Viking Age. I'm far from an expert on the history of ship building, but at least in the accounts I've read to date, this is often presented as a uniquely Scandinavian Viking innovation.


        All in all, it would seem weird if FGC23343 sailors--and remember, William de Forz I was an admiral of King Richard I's fleet--had NOT encountered the approaching Viking fleets well before they attacked and settled Saintonge (perhaps only temporarily) in 845 A.D. Maybe, given the evidence of the clinker built ships, there was some degree of trade/collaboration and cultural exchange with the Vikings.

        Comment


        • A few more observations re: FGC23343 sightings outside of the Basque country:

          1. Interesting paper by Alex Woolf describing the role of slavery in the viking economy. Anything can happen over a span of hundreds of undocumented years, but generally speaking, Ireland and Scotland were used as sources from which slaves were exported, usually into the Carolingian empire and further afield, in exchange for items like wine or luxury goods that could not be obtained locally in Scandinavia, Britain or Ireland. Meaning that it would be relatively unusual to import Basque slaves INTO Shetland or Orkney.


          https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=us


          2. That same article speculates that it may have been relatively common for viking bands to recruit local men during a campaign, and that this may be supported by oxygen isotope analyses of human remains from archaeological site in Ireland--although no individuals specifically suspected to be of Saintonge origin appear among them.

          3. Regarding the one set of confirmed FGC23343 from Saarwellingen in the German Rhineland, and another one-off from Bonn, speculated to be FGC23343 based on haplotype: Auxiliaries from north eastern Spain apparently formed a large part of the Roman armies in Germany. Basque auxiliaries are specifically mentioned in an action at Moers in 69 A.D. Page 143 from this 1906 publication by William Thomas Arnold and Edward Fiddes.

          https://books.google.com/books?id=_A...ermany&f=false

          I hadn't thought too much about German FGC23343 lately, probably because that place was so closely associated with the occupation by the French Revolutionary Armies that I didn't suppose an investigation into its presence there would return anything surprising. I did try to see whether any units specifically recruited from Saintonge were garrisoned nearby, or whether any of the occupying generals had notable links to the Saintonge region, but no dice. In any event, that occupation was of such a long duration, and French forces continually on the march in those years, with units continually being dissolved, amalgamated and re-formed, I doubted whether this type of regional associated even existed in the French army of that period.


          Comment


          • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
            . . . 3. Regarding the one set of confirmed FGC23343 from Saarwellingen in the German Rhineland . . .
            In 1635 a number of military engagements involving men from the neighborhood of Oleron (i.e., home of the de Forz earls of Albermarle, and presumably the FGC23343+ Garnetts) took place at Wallerfangen, very close to Saarwellingen. Units include the light cavalry of the de Barthon Vicomtes of Montbas (i.e., "Mombas" in this German language account of 1841), the Vicomte L'estrange from Limousin, the Comte of Saint Agnau (Saint-Angeau?), and the Comte de Savignac (Girdonde).

            https://books.google.com/books?id=mM...fangen&f=false

            Comment


            • There's a little ambiguity about the identification of some of the French officers listed in that German account of the 1635 battle of Wallerfangen. Most of them are definitely from south west France, which given the age of FGC23343 is probably all that matters, but there are multiple places named Savignac, etc., and the German-rendered "Saint Agnau" may be either "Saint Angeau" near Saintes or "Saint Agne" in the Franche Comte, much further north east. But three references are pretty clear:

              The "Vicomte Mombas" refers to the Barton family of Montbas, near Gajoubert, reasonably close to Saintes, the old de Forz stomping grounds.

              https://books.google.com/books?id=Jc...Poitou&f=false

              The "Cinsac" must refer to Quinsac, on the Garonne River, very close to Saintes, at that time property of the Lubersac family who originated in Limousin, as I think most of the other names listed do. Limousin would be a bit further east of Saintes, but as I said, given the age of FGC23343, that's probably a trivial detail.

              https://books.google.com/books?id=PA...sac%22&f=false

              I've found a few general genealogical accounts of these officers' families with vague references to their military careers, but I've found only one fully fleshed out enough to confidently trace a specific individual to Wallerfangen--Phillipe Jousserand, seigneur de Londigny, 50 miles north east of Saintes, "décédé avant le 27 novembre 1636".

              https://www.chateaudeschevaliersdelo...an-jousserand/

              This family was very old, and crossed paths with early members of the de Vivonne family, who are presumed by many to be a cadet branch of the de Forz family discussed elsewhere.

              http://jm.ouvrard.pagesperso-orange....jousserand.htm

              The current SNP results suggests that the Saarwellingen FGC23343+ people must have branched off from the FGC23369+ people sometime around the founding of FGC23343, maybe around 500 B.C., so obviously it is highly unlikely there is a traceable connection through the de Forz/de Vivonne families. And there's certainly no guarantee that the Saarwellingen people come from the Jousserand family, rather than some hypothetical Basque auxiliary of the Roman army based at Trier, for instance. Even if the presence of FGC23343 in Saarwellingen is due to this French occupation, there's no reason their progenitor would have to be any of the hitherto named officers. And while FGC23343 may not have originated around Saintes/Oleron, this does add to a growing body of circumstantial evidence that it may have expanded from there, at a date very near its founding.

              Comment


              • A French account of this campaign. Gives yet another version of "Saint Agnan" for the German account's "Saint Agnau", and explicitly associates de Londigny with the cavalry unit of Vicomte Mombas, which agrees with the genealogical accounts discussed above both in making the families close neighbors on the border between Vienne and Charente, and the description of Phillipe Jousserand de Londigny as "chevalier".

                https://books.google.com/books?id=_e...bas%22&f=false

                Comment


                • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                  . . .The current SNP results suggests that the Saarwellingen FGC23343+ people must have branched off from the FGC23369+ people . . .
                  That is, of course, a typo for FGC28369+.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                    . . . three references are pretty clear:

                    The "Vicomte Mombas" refers to the Barton family of Montbas, near Gajoubert, reasonably close to Saintes, the old de Forz stomping grounds. . . .The "Cinsac" must refer to Quinsac, on the Garonne River, very close to Saintes . . . Phillipe Jousserand, seigneur de Londigny, 50 miles north east of Saintes, "décédé avant le 27 novembre 1636". . . .
                    There are definite genealogical connections between the Barton vicomtes de Montbas and the Jousserand seigneurs de Londigny, through the Bonnin family, branches of Massignac, La Reigneuse and Montaumar. I suppose like any other European army in the 17th century, de Montbas' cavalry unit was kind of a family operation. So if the Saarwellingen FGC23343+ is attributable to the 1635 action at Wallerfangen, it must be someone within the orbit of these families.

                    https://books.google.com/books?id=cQ...gny%22&f=false


                    Comment


                    • Here is another, fuller account of Montbas' role in the 1635 engagement at Wallerfangen, beginning on page 14. Apparently de Londigny was his cornet, so there does seem to be a distinctive Charente contribution to this battle.

                      https://books.google.com/books?id=fQ...ontbas&f=false

                      If I understand this correctly, the French troops were based at Mainz and came in response to the (temporary) capture of the fortifications at Wallerfangen by enemy troops. So they almost certainly passed directly through Saarwellingen.

                      There's a lot of confusion among the various members of the Montbas family, but it's a sure thing that the first commander of what later became the 2nd Cuirassiers regiment was a Montbas, placed in command by Cardinal Richelieu. So it's definitely the Montaumar branch of the family that was involved--although I think some popular accounts mistakenly name this founding commander as Francois, rather than his father, Pierre.

                      https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/2e_r%C...de_cuirassiers


                      Biography of Pierre, beginning on page 119.

                      https://books.google.com/books?id=ir...helieu&f=false


                      Online pedigree of Pierre. His wife was definitely a Bonnin.

                      https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/g...mme/I68294.php

                      There may have been two Bonnin-Montbas marriages, so the Jousserand de Londigny family must have been very intimate with them.

                      https://books.google.com/books?id=cQ...gny%22&f=false


                      BTW, another French cavalry unit was sent to Wallerfangen on at least one other later occasion, in 1644. The 1644 event was led by an Italian-born captain, and some accounts say that Montbas' earlier service occurred in Italy,so perhaps there was some continuity, some lingering connections to Charente that nobody bothered to document in the accounts I've seen to date.

                      Comment


                      • Francois Barthon de Montbas, son of the Pierre Barthon de Montbas who I think commanded cavalry at the 1635 engagement at Wallerfangen, seems to have been based in the neighborhood through the mid-1640s. Between 1643 and 1644 he was definitely involved in engagements at nearby Thionville and Sierck, and may have been a part of the 1644 engagement at Wallerfangen under the command of Pierre Magalotti, nephew of Cardinal Mazarin, successor to Cardinal Richelieu. Certainly Francois Barthon and Magalotti were together at the siege of Gravelines in 1644.

                        https://books.google.com/books?id=Mu...evange&f=false

                        https://books.google.com/books?id=Au...elines&f=false

                        Comment


                        • Jean, son of the above mentioned Pierre Barthon de Montbas, joined the Dutch army and married a daughter of the patrician Hugo de Groot. Several of Hugo's letters published online mention actions at Wallerfangen (aka 'Vaudrevange') in the same sentence as the above referenced actions at Thionville and Sierck, where Jean's brother Francois is supposed to have served about this time. So although there's no specific mention of either Barthon brother at Wallerfangen, it seems like a reasonable speculation that they were in the neighborhood for an extended period, perhaps for as many as 10 years, given their family's involvement in the 1635 action.

                          https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/g...me/I136991.php

                          http://grotius.huygens.knaw.nl/letters/7104/note_11568

                          Jean later fell afoul of the Dutch authorities, in the 1660s, and spent some time in exile in Cologne. The other German FGC23343+ (hypothesized, not tested, based on haplotype) is from nearby Bonn. He's GD of 11 at 67 versus the Saarwellingen FGC23343+ fellow, so it's definitely not within a genealogical timeline, but it does suggest another possible explanation for the SNP's presence other than some unnamed, unresearchable auxiliary in the Roman army.

                          Comment


                          • That other German guy who maybe FGC23343+, but to my knowledge hasn't yet tested, seems to have his earliest known ancestry in Neukirchen, Rheinbach, near the city of Bonn, former capital of Cologne. I think this documents his earliest known ancestor.

                            http://www.gedbas.de/person/show/1017447956

                            There is kind of a connection between this place and Saarwellingen/Wallerfangen. In July 1646, the Comte de Turenne--who was overall French commander at Wallerfangen in 1635--occupied Ahrweiler, less than a mile from Neukirchen.

                            The service records of the Barthons de Montbas make it unlikely that they were present themselves at Ahrweiler, but that may not even be the point, given the GD between these guys and the fact that Limousin, home of the de Turennes, is probably close enough to Saintes itself to suggest a FGC23343 link.

                            Bonn/Rheinbach/Ahrweiler were constantly the subject of French military interventions during the 17th century, but given the strength of the documentary record for that linked Kessel/Schoenenberg pedigree, I think any kind of French NPE after 1646 is unlikely. Andreas Kessel's birth year doesn't seem to be currently known, but 1646 is a good guess, and none of the other men in this pedigree seems to have been born during any of the known French occupations that I know about.

                            It feels a little more satisfying to at least relate this observation of (potential) FGC23343 to some specific historic event, but coincidences come cheap when you deal in timespans of hundreds and thousands of years. As mentioned earlier, Jean Barthon de Montbas was exiled to Cologne in the early 1670s, and he must have passed by Rheinbach, given the proximity to the palace of the Archbishop of Cologne at Bonn. Ahrweiler was captured in 1688 by Henri d'Escoubleau, marquis de Sourdis, a relative of the Barthon de Montbas family. But like I said, I don't think the birth years in the pedigree make any of these a particularly likely explanation. Could easily still be this remote, Roman auxiliary behind the whole thing.

                            Comment


                            • It's probably not realistic to expect to trace these German FGC23343+ families to specific surnames or even specific French communes, but for what it's worth I'm going to guess that they originate somewhere around Bordeaux. In 1634 and 1635 de Turenne was under the direct command of the marechals Nompar de La Force and then Nogaret de la Valette, the former of whom is mentioned as being present at Wallerfangen. De Turenne later married the daughter of de La Force, and all of these families--including the Barthon de Montbas family--were related to the de Foix comtes de Candale, with estates in the Pays de Buch near Bordeaux--just down the coast from Oleron. Apparently the level of military recruitment in 17th century Aquitaine was off the charts, so much so that the term 'Gascon' appears to have become a byword for the desperately poor younger sons of the nobility drawn to the army by a lack of any other means of advancement.

                              Comment


                              • Aha! Looks like there is actually a direct connection between the armies of marechal Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne, vicomte de Turenne and the Isle of Oleron, where FGC23343 seems to have been particularly strong (e.g., Gendron, de Forz). The implication of these two websites is that the marechal inherited estates there, even if they weren't considered his caput.

                                1. " . . . A charter dated 17 Jan 1411 (O.S.) . . . the marriage of “le seigneur de Pons en Turenne...Regnault...viconte de Turenne et seigneur de l’isle d’Oleron . . ."

                                http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/AQUI...#_Toc494269232

                                2. ". . . Antoine de La Tour, seigneur d'Oliergues dit Le Vieux (? -1527), frère du précédent, épouse en 1494 Antoinette de Pons, vicomtesse en partie de Turenne, fille de Guy et Jeanne de Castelnau . . ."

                                https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_...d'Auvergne

                                So Antoinette de Pons, whose great grand father was the above-mentioned Regnault, lord of the Isle of Oleron, was the great great grandmother of the marechal. No doubt that men of Oleron composed some portion of the marechal's armies who passed through Wallerfangen-Saarwellingen in 1635 and Ahrweiler-Rheinbach in 1646.

                                Wild. I didn't think I could reasonably hope for a connection this direct. It still doesn't give us the relevant surnames, or tell for absolutely sure that German FGC23343 all definitely descend from de Turenne's armies--theoretically it could still be some kind of Roman auxilaries whose descendants spread out from Trier, for example. But the specificity of the connection to Oleron makes it feel like the Thirty Years' War is way more likely.






                                Last edited by benowicz; 28th March 2020, 03:51 AM.

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