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  • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
    . . . Although there are two different places called Coleby in Lincolnshire, so I cannot be certain that I'm looking at the correct place . . . understanding the changes in ownership of West Halton, and the descent of the Lincolnshire Colebys would be very useful.
    Not looking good. There may well have been two distinct land owning families named Coleby within Lincolnshire, but the only one whom I have (to date) found in Medieval records are from the Coleby near Lincoln town. NOT the one I was hoping for.

    As evidence, there is this reference on page 114, to a manor of Coleby in the Lincoln Assizes of 1272, where the former owners, named de Coleby, were contesting the passage of land through a fellow named William Caperun.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=9Y...Coleby&f=false

    This entry for a William 'Capun' on page 303 in the Testa de Nevill, shows him owning land at a place called Coleby in the honour of Richmond, which seems to have been generally located in the south of Lincolnshire. A nearby entry is clearly for Washingborough, just 9 miles from the Coleby near Lincoln town, and 40 miles from the Coleby I want, formerly owned by William fitz Nigel.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=_J...nshire&f=false

    Even the 'Colby family' book whose claims I find a little bit suspicious clearly cites a Lawrence Colby, gentleman, of Fulbeck, also very near Lincoln town.

    https://archive.org/stream/historyof...0colb_djvu.txt

    Maybe there were two families, or some other type of error. The coat of arms cited by the Massachusetts Historical Society publication don't match any version of the Colby coat of arms that I've seen.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
      Not looking good. There may well have been two distinct land owning families named Coleby within Lincolnshire, but the only one whom I have (to date) found in Medieval records are from the Coleby near Lincoln town. NOT the one I was hoping for. . .
      Well, the only land owning Colebys connected to a manor named Coleby in Lincolnshire. There may be a different Lincolnshire land owning family named de Coleby NOT associated with a manor of that name.

      Also in the Testa de Nevill, I think maybe in the 1240's, there is a Robert de Coleby owning land at WULRIKEBY, which I am reasonably certain represents modern Worlaby, near Louth. Page 305.

      https://books.google.com/books?id=_J...nshire&f=false

      http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/...1_133_55.shtml

      However, there's a twist.

      In context, this is definitely NOT to be confused with the Worlaby near Brigg, much closer to West Halton (i.e., 8 miles vs. the nearly 50 miles between West Halton and Worlaby, Louth). But it is within the land holdings of the Earl of Chester, liege lord of William fitz Nigel. There's a Roger de Monte Alto, almost definitely a son or grandson of Leuca "fitz Nigel", niece of William fitz Gerard, owning land nearby at Mablethorpe, listed on the same page of the Testa de Nevill.

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      • It would be nice to have an independent source for the coat of arms of this particular branch of the Coleby family.

        But it seems that I may be very close to a solid hypothesis for the origins of the FGC23343+ Vincents that makes them descendants of William fitz Nigel, 2nd baron Halton, constable of Chester. Either from William or a close relative.

        There was indeed a second, distinct gentry family of Coleby in Lincolnshire & Yorkshire, deriving their name from lands held by William fitz Nigel during Domesday. This record from 1252 gives a catalog of some of their early holdings, which at the time of Domesday, were held by William fitz Nigel himself, or his father-in-law, Gilbert de Gant.

        https://books.google.com/books?id=vM...nshire&f=false

        I'm going to want to gather my findings in pedigree format, with citation, but I'll have to iron out the typos, etc. first. There are a few, some in my sources, but some I made myself, in earlier posts here. But the conclusion seems to be coming clear that the Colbeys whose arms a descendant of the Great Smeaton Vincents assumed were relatives of some kind of William fitz Nigel.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SDV View Post
          The wall i hit and possible expansion of my family lineage in time occurs in the early 1700's late 1600's. I refer to the Monmouth Rebellion in 1685, 7 Vincents took part in the rebellion. John Vincent the Captain from Holland, John Vincent the unconventional minister and Joseph Vincent the fuller are the three that i focus upon. John the Captain came from Holland and was sent to Barbados after the rebellion was quashed. John the nonconformist minister served time and was pardoned for storing munitions in churches. Joseph the fuller it is documented was presumably pardoned. (was he a child?) Its the documentation of presumably pardoned that has me thinking.

          I do not know with any certainty whether Josephs father was John the captain or John the minister, or he may have been the captains son and taken in by the minister. The Monmouth rebellion is documented history, my family lore is not. The minor nobility status of the ecclesiastical Vincents may have saved Joseph, the ones with ties in the Dumfrieshire area. Vincent gentry in Dumfrieshire puts us also in close proximity of the Ulster scots and quite possibly the Carroll family. What I am sure of, Joseph and John, are common names in my line of descendants in England. Also, that one Vincent made it to Virginia, and he lists Dumfrieshire, Scotland as to were he came from.

          I have almost finished the little write up I made about my observations. To your knowledge, has anyone explored the possibility that your line somehow connects to this guy? Maybe someone from the DNA project?

          https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm....nix&id=I081795

          Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this the nonconformist minister you were talking about? Named Nathaniel, son of John, and not John?

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Vincent

          I'm less confident that I correctly identified literature on either of the other Vincents you speak about in connection to Monmouths' rebellion. Generally, most of the action took place in the south western counties--where the surname Vincent is at its most common. It's just that I don't see any connections to Scotland or the gentry there.

          If the Captain John you speak about actually had family roots in Holland, and not just temporarily stationed there, I'm not sure I'd consider him a likely candidate. I'm focused right now mainly on English people of Norman origin or people from Normandy itself. Not that it couldn't be, but what little evidence there is doesn't suggest it's a particularly high probability, I think.

          About Joseph Vincent the fuller, I can find nothing.
          Last edited by benowicz; 5th September 2018, 10:44 PM.

          Comment


          • Here's the last draft. Should open as a read-only Word file.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
              Here's the last draft. Should open as a read-only Word file.
              That was intended as much to establish a catalog of documents for future research as to present a coherent conclusion.

              Given the vast amount of critical information that is unknown, I don't suppose much confidence is possible. But it seems fair to ask for a more structured presentation. Below is a quantification of my gut-level feelings after having written, reviewed & edited that research document.
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                I have almost finished the little write up I made about my observations. To your knowledge, has anyone explored the possibility that your line somehow connects to this guy? Maybe someone from the DNA project?

                https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm....nix&id=I081795

                Considering that currently I am the only person in my immediate family doing any geneological research, the answer would be, no.

                This branch of the Vincent surname would most likely be from the I-M253 Vincents the Cornwall-> Somerset,Maryland branch.
                The other possible line are the R-L1 Vincents which range from Rutherford NC to Surry VA area. The possibility of my Vincent line as a NPE event in early colonial America, is not out of the realm of possibility.

                Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this the nonconformist minister you were talking about? Named Nathaniel, son of John, and not John?

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Vincent

                No, The nonconformist Minister i refer was named John.

                https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/00...1=John+Vincent

                He was a prisoner in Dorset, ss. Prisoners to be transported, to be delivered to Jerome Nipho, in all 62.

                I'm less confident that I correctly identified literature on either of the other Vincents you speak about in connection to Monmouths' rebellion. Generally, most of the action took place in the south western counties--where the surname Vincent is at its most common. It's just that I don't see any connections to Scotland or the gentry there.

                If the Captain John you speak about actually had family roots in Holland, and not just temporarily stationed there, I'm not sure I'd consider him a likely candidate. I'm focused right now mainly on English people of Norman origin or people from Normandy itself. Not that it couldn't be, but what little evidence there is doesn't suggest it's a particularly high probability, I think.

                What i have found about John the Capt. It appears Jans was also an acceptable spelling, him being rooted firmly in Holland and caught up with the various other Vincents at the time appears coincidental in my eyes at this point due to the political winds.

                About Joseph Vincent the fuller, I can find nothing.
                Joseph Vincent the fuller. I cannot find any record of other than he was there.

                Thank you for all this work. The Vincent lineage are not an easy path to discover. Very twisty.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SDV View Post
                  Joseph Vincent the fuller. I cannot find any record of other than he was there.

                  Thank you for all this work. The Vincent lineage are not an easy path to discover. Very twisty.
                  No problem. This is a very interesting historical puzzle. There are some well-established pieces, like the Edgeworth, Gerard & Garnett pedigrees to leverage off of. This could bring another into play.

                  Just found this, which seems to be an extended abstract of the arms grant to Philip Vincent, including direct quotes. It's hard to read. I think the heralds did a bad job of documenting their work here.

                  https://books.google.com/books?id=yz...ess%22&f=false


                  It seems to suggest that there is record of Vincents attempting to register some version of the "Cowleby" arms in 1371 A.D. (i.e., the regnal year 45 Edward III), which is one generation back from the currently most authoritative version of the Great Smeaton pedigree.

                  It also seems to show that the "standard" version of the de Coleby coat of arms had a color scheme identical to the de Fulthorpe arms I discussed at footnote 36 in the memo.

                  I'm also consulting with an expert on the 'Copley' family discussed in the memo. I think I may have been able to extend their pedigree back to about 1050 A.D., to a Saxon named Askelf (variants: Essolf, Asolf, etc.). There seems little chance that their name was ever confused with any version of "Cowleby", especially since they were already well established in the 13th century, even if the precise connection to later descendants is not clear. But their use of essentially identical arms with the 'Cowelbys' seems to require some explanation.

                  It seems that there were a number of families using arms so similar to those described for the "Cowlebys" that I may end up just chalking it up to coincidence, just something that happens whenever you choose a very simple design. To date, these families include:

                  1. de Fulthorpe, Richmondshire
                  2. Copely of Sprotbrough, Yorkshire
                  3. Upton of Northolme, Lincolnshire
                  4. Sampson of Nun-Appleton, Yorkshire
                  5. de Percehay of the Great Habton area of Yorkshire
                  6. de Monceaux, also of the Great Habton area

                  I'm almost sure that the Upton thing is a coincidence--they intermarried with a Bek family from around Boston, Lincolnshire, and I think the Uptons' choices were influenced by the Beks' heraldry.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony...shop_of_Durham)

                  The de Fulthorpe, de Percehay and de Monceaux things just might have had a similar influence on the Cowlebys of Great Smeaton, as almost all the records of the Coleby family in Yorkshire since 1400 have also been with the area around Great Habton. Which could be good news for the fitz Nigel theory, because there was what I think was a "fiz Nigel" de Coleby fairly close by, at Brantingham, during de Kirkby's survey of 1284-5. Also named John, like the guy at Great Smeaton at that time.

                  Plus, I got a little more detail about the history of the abbey of St. Mary in Great Smeaton. Their holdings originated there in the mid-12th century, through donations by Robert I de Brus.

                  https://books.google.com/books?id=_c...Hornby&f=false

                  The later Vincent family DEFINITELY acquired, at least temporarily, part of the old St. Mary holdings around 1551. For its early history, I believe Appleton Wiske was considered a part of the parish (i.e., a 'chapel') of Great Smeaton.

                  https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vc...vol2/pp223-225

                  Remember, at the moment, the strongest piece of documentary evidence that the Great Smeaton de Colebys were a branch of the fitz Nigel family was that, like the Geoffrey de Coleby of Heworth (& Coleby, wapentake Manley), they were tenants of the abbey of St. Mary.
                  Last edited by benowicz; 9th September 2018, 07:53 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                    . . . Remember, at the moment, the strongest piece of documentary evidence that the Great Smeaton de Colebys were a branch of the fitz Nigel family was that, like the Geoffrey de Coleby of Heworth (& Coleby, wapentake Manley), they were tenants of the abbey of St. Mary.
                    All the evidence in both directions (i.e., pro-fitz Nigel vs. pro-Colby in Westmorland), except perhaps the DNA, is circumstantial. There were relatives of the Westmorland family holding land nearby (e.g., the Cabers & de Fulthorpes at Catterick parish).

                    But for 10 years, 1189 to 1199 A.D., Ranulf, 6th earl of Chester, was also earl of Richmond. Sir Richard Fitton of Bollyn in Cheshire, a justiciar of the earl of Chester, was also seneschal for the earldom of Richmond, and held land at East Cowton and Great Smeaton, two places later closely associated with the de Coleby/Vincent family. They kept that land into the early 1300s, I think. At least until 1285, when de Kirkby's survey was prepared.

                    https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vc...vol1/pp160-162

                    The fitz Nigel family were constables of the earl of Chester until the 1150s, when it passed into another family through an heiress. The de Colebys retained some connection with the earls of Chester through the 13th century in their various holdings in Lincolnshire & Oxfordshire, so there are maybe plausible reasons beyond the connection with the abbey of St. Mary at York for the de Colebys to come this way.

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