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Viking FGC23343

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  • Viking FGC23343

    R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > S450 > Z209 > ZZ40 > FGC23343

    The Big Tree

    DF27 Project

    Telling markers might be DYS557=16; DYS534=15; DYS444=13; DYS446=13; DYS565=11

    Y Search has a profile for a person last-name Dorey who matches the project participants. DEAGD.

    The project also has several people named Doble who only tested up through Z209 who appear likely to be FGC23343+ based on haplotype.

    The thing is that Dorey's ancestor (DEAGD) was actually born in Normandy on Jersey. The Edgeworths have a tradition of Norman ancestry. The standard origin in name books for the name Doble is also Norman.

    Henderson has tree from 1742. His family live in Shetland.

    He doesn't say he belongs to the main Shetland Henderson family, but those ones have a tree that goes back to Denmark in the middle ages.

    Chalmers is from Angus on the east coast of Scotland, just across from Norway, but that name is also very common in Orkney.

    Canovas says he's from Spain in the project, but on other sites the donor says his family is from Longjumeau, not far from Normandy in northern France.

    There are other subclades of Z209 nearby to FGC23343 on the Big Tree that have a lot of representation in Scandinavia, too, like S21184. That is the most SNP for the name Burke, too, which is Norman.

    I think these are Vikings, not Spanish.

  • #2
    More evidence of this migration route from Norway/Denmark to Scotland to Normandy to England:

    There are a lot of place names in Normandy that come from Gaelic (i.e., Scottish) people, meaning that the original settlers were from the Viking colonies in Scotland. Doncanville, Quinéville, etc., all concentrated in the north end of the Cotentin peninsula, directly across from Jersey and the channel islands.

    A rich collection of articles on multiple aspects of Anglo-Norman and Norman studies, forming an indispensable addition to an understanding of this important period of history. This volume of Anglo-Norman Studies demonstrates yet again the multi-disciplinarity and European range of the series. As befits the proceedings of a conference held in Normandy at Bayeux, it contains two articles on the renowned Tapestry, and a consideration of the campaign of 1066; there are also several papers on the medieval duchy, their topics including its early tenth-century origins, the abbesses of Norman nunneries, abbatial investitures in the context of religious reform, the reign of Robert Curthose, the charters of a major aristocratic family, and historical writing in and around late twelfth- and early thirteenth-century Normandy. Alongside these are articleson landscape and belief, villein manumissions and the theology of the incarnation, the evolution of criminal law in Scotland, Bohemond of Antioch, the architectural historian John Bilson, and important aspects of twelfth-centurypoetry. David Bates is a Professorial Fellow at the University of East Anglia and was until recently a Visiting Professor at the University of Caen Basse-Normandie. Contributors: Lesley Abrams, Bernard S. Bachrach, Steven Biddlecombe, Alexandrina Buchanan, Howard B. Clarke, Edoardo D'Angelo, Gregory Fedorenko, Jean-Hervé Foulon, George Garnett, Véronique Gazeau, Paul R. Hyams, Sylvette Lemagnen, Monika Otter, Daniel Power, Alice Taylor, C.S. Watkins.

    There are some names in Normandy from English people, too, (e.g., Englesqueville, etc.) but they are concentrated further east, away from Cotentin.

    So the ancestors of these FGC23343+ people probably were not in the original warband of Hrolf the Ganger, who supposedly came directly from Denmark. The SNP could have originated in Scotland or maybe Dublin among Viking descendants.


    • #3
      Dorey is very common name on Jersey, with no normal documentation about their earliest origins. But at least one branch of the family is emphatic that it is of Viking origin.

      One researcher working on families on the Cotentin with that same specific spelling, with a Y at the end, say they have been at Crasville, within 5 miles of Quineville, one of the Scottish place names I talked about earlier, since the 1200s.

      Last edited by benowicz; 10 February 2018, 11:49 AM.


      • #4
        The first family of Viscounts of Cotentin frequently used the Irish-Norse name Néel (i.e., Niall or Njall).

        The legends surrounding their origin are tied up with an iffy 13th-century Icelandic saga about Hrolf the Ganger, but the Néel family are said to descend from Eystein Glumra, whose family were early earls of Orkney in Scotland.

        So this migration route from Shetland to Normandy should maybe not surprise us.
        Last edited by benowicz; 12 February 2018, 07:31 PM.


        • #5
          As for the Edgeworths, nothing is known of their home in Normandy. Though there may be a few clues in the pattern of their early associations in England.

          The de Laceys rented Lassy, among other places located just south of the Cotentin peninsula, from the Bishop of Bayeux.

          Payn fitz John's family were from the western shores of the Contentin, directly across from Guernsey and Jersey, at Vains near Avranches. Payn's earliest known ancestor was his great grandfather, Ranulf, a mill owner and money lender.

          There have been a lot of attempts to take Ranulf's line further back, but it seems to be pretty well acknowledged today that they have all failed. Ranulf was definitely NOT a brother of the ancestors of the de Burgh family, as is often claimed--though the supposed Irish branch of the de Burghs do belong to S21184, a brother clade of FGC23343. But though those clades are closer to one another than to any others currently identified in the tree, they're still separated by more than a couple thousand years.

          There also seems to have been an attempt to link the Comtes d'Avranches to the Eysteinson family discussed earlier. They all look like 19th century interpretations of a 13th century Icelandic Saga that in fact conflicts with a probably more reliable 11th century account (at least with respect to this one genealogical point). Dudo of Saint-Quentin appears to have had good grounds to say that Hrolf the Ganger was born in Denmark, not Orkney or Norway as would be the case with the Eysteinsons. Plus, I can't find anything in the quotes of Dudo's work that encourage a direct, male-line link between Hrolf's family and the Cotentin families I've looked at to date--this is probably pure 19th century invention.

          So, at this point, while there is a definite bias in the associations of the Edgeworths towards western Normandy, consistent with the Jersey origins of Dorey (DEAGD), that is about all that can be said. Just very weak circumstantial evidence.


          • #6
            There is a Norwegian-derived place name in the neighborhood of these Lacy and fitz Ranulf connections of the early Edgeworths that might be of interest--Le Mesnil-Opac, about equidistant from Lassy and Vains, but slightly further north.

             Plutôt qu’un état des lieux des vestiges de la présence viking en Occident autour de l’an mil, cet ouvrage cherche à aborder de manière dynamique la formation territoriale des établissements scandinaves dans l’Europe du nord-ouest et plus particulièrement dans le Danelaw, dans les Orcades et en Normandie.Dans quelle mesure les différentes sources documentaires, archéologiques et toponymiques nous informent-elles sur la phase de la conquête et ses implications logistiques et stratégiques ? Que nous suggèrent-elles quant à la phase d’installation, quant aux choix économiques et sociaux, quant aux moyens politiques mis en œuvre et quant à l’utilisation des divers réseaux ?À partir d’une lecture géographique de la colonisation viking, il s’agit de cerner un phénomène d’invasion spécifique, d’évaluer le rapport entre envahisseurs et populations indigènes à travers les contacts, les conflits, et la coexistence finale.

            It derives from the old Norwegian name Ospakr, which was used by the Hebridean dynasty descended from Somerled, whose kindred is R1a.

            Three other points may be of interest here:

            Somerled is also represented directly in the place names of Cotentin. As that link points out, somewhat farther north, in today's Saint Germain-le-Gaillard, there was a place called Summerleeville.

            According to the article by Eric Van Tourhoudt I linked to earlier, Summerleeville was likely within core sphere of influence of the so-called Néel Viscounts of Saint Sauveur.

            Second, beginning on page 15, Van Torhoudt talks about the Néel Viscounts' patronage of some churches dedicated to Saint Columba--whose primary foundation was at Iona in the Hebrides, in the heart of Somerled country.

            One of those Norman churches dedicated to Columba is called La Colombe today, about half way between Le Mesnil Opac and Vains.

            Finally, cycling back to the Edgeworths, two miles north west of Le Mesnil Opac is a place called Le Mesnil Herman. The first documented ancestor of the Edgeworths was a fellow called Herman de Egewurd, an associate of the de Laceys and the Fitz Ranulfs. Wikipedia says the first documentary reference to Le Mesnil Herman is from 1280, a couple hundred years after the Edgeworths had left, but maybe the name had been around earlier.

            At 1066, both Le Mesnil Opac and Herman were part of the lordship of William de Moyon, whose lands in England were in Somerset and Dorset.

            Moyon, a pleasant little village, was in other times an important Barony, and due to this fact possesses a history really interesting. The name “Moyon” originally celtic or pre-celtic leaves us to think that a village already existed in this area in the Gallic period. Later, Moyon was a part of the possessions of William the Conquerer - the Duke of Normandy, bearing the name “Cour de Moyon” (courtyard of Moyon). This man set himself up as the Baron and gave it to one of his faithful companions to thank him for his help in maintaining his power in Normandy in 1047. He took the title of Baron Guillaume 1 de Moyon (The Baron William 1 of Moyon). Besides Moyon, his lordship’s land spread out to the actual communities of Tessy sur Vire, Beaucoudray, Villebeaudon, La Haye Bellefond, Le Mesnil Herman, Le Mesnil Opac - which was actually a total of 6,000 hectares compared to the 2,374 hectares today. These small market towns created the borders on hilltops, flat land, or even on the banks of a river, which made Moyon the center of this natural protection device. A wood of 400 hectares is also part of the community. Moyon possessed equally in it’s own area - a Royal Office of Weights and Measures, with certain exemption and freedom, - a very important judge. There was a sergent and solicitor, and he gave the King the service of eleven knights. At the time of the conquest of England by the Normands in 1066, William of Moyon who was particularly illustrated, received the counties of Dorset and Somerset. In this last county, a castle was erected at Dunster facing the sea, and became the headquarters of their land in England. His oldest son succeeded him under the name of William 11, then there was William 111, William 1V, and eventually Renaud 1. At the annexation of Normandy by France in 1204, this last successor had the choice to be the king of France or the king of England - which would give up his rights in Normandy. These rights being confiscated, he set himself up permanently in England where his descendants would have an important role in the country. The direct ancestry finished in 1404. So in 1204 the Barony of Moyon came back to the kingdom of France which he gave to his administrator, Guérin de Glapion, to thank him for his good duty in the surrender of Normandy. The donation was for the whole life of the administrator, so in 1220 he was still in the hands of the King of France. In 1233 Saint Louis exchanged with Henri d’Avaugour, Moyon for Pontorson. His son Alain d’Avaugour sold Moyon to Agnés, the widow of Olivier Paisnel. After almost a century of uncertainty the Barony of Moyon found itself back after the games of succession in the following families: the Paisnel, the d’Estouteville, the Matignon, and the Grimaldi. A few words about these families: The Paisnel, a famous English-Norman family had not taken part with the King of France, like the Moyons, and they lost their rights in England. The d’Estouteville, old Norman roots which rose again at the foundation of the country. They became the defenders of Mont Saint Michel against the English in 1425 to 1434. The Matignon, which the hotel in Paris with the same name was their Parisian home, were equally the Count of Thorigni, military governor of Cherbourg, Chausey, Granville .... Lieutenant General of Normandy, Baron of St. Lo ... The Grimaldi Prince of Monaco, due to the marriage of Jacques de Matignon with Louise Hyppolite Grimaldi, the only heiress of Monaco. It was the first signature of little Louis XV and the Regent for the approval of the marriage. Their son Honoré 111 of Monaco who lived in the Castle of Thorigni where he raised horses, was deprived of his rights of Moyon during the French revolution. However, the title stayed with the princely family and Prince Albert 11 of Monaco is the actual Baron of Moyon. Of this ancient history, Moyon has only retained a few of the remains. Just the remaining base of the church bell dating from the X111 century, the furniture and statues in the church from the XVI and XVIII centuries (parts of them are reproductions of very good quality), as well as the stained glass round the choir which are coats of arms. The whole of the church was strongly revised in the XIX and XX centuries (nave and choir). One can see still several farms of character (domains) of the XV and XVI centuries which belonged to the castle. The first feudal castle was destroyed during the hundred year war (started XIV), and it is still possible to see the mounds and the moats. The manor which replaced it was destroyed soon after the French revolution. It had a chapel and a dovecot. During the second world war, the market town, including the top of the bell tower of the church, was destroyed. These destructions happened during the liberation of Moyon, due to the attack by the 29th US division in the direction of Vire. According to the evidence received from veterans, this liberation happened between the 28th of July and the 1st of August 1944 by the 116th infantry regiment, the 227th artillery, 69th armoured light division and probably the 743rd tank division. We still don’t know the other military units. In the image of its important past, Moyon has re-grown from its ruins and its dynamism is recognised again. Established in the rural environment, the milk cattle rearing has since a long time enlivened life every day. Before there were very many farms occupying the territory. Although they have become fewer, they are still important and well structured. The farming co-operative is large, a market centre and milk store and a milk factory makes up the new rural countryside. The craftsmen occupy two spaces of work including farm nourishment and building work. A large range of commercial closeness ensures the stocking of services. A doctor, a nurse stay in place, a chiropodist and a physiotherapist create a good structure of care. The presence of a retirement home makes it possible to look after our old people. In spite of the considerable reduction of farmers, which causes a change in character in the community, Moyon has enlarged the town with new houses to welcome new inhabitants. Sports grounds of football, tennis and bowling, Village Hall, walk pathways, library, information center, several sports associations and leisure centers contribute to the animation of Moyon. All this gives the little town of 1,020 inhabitants an area very agreeable to live in and discover.

            The Edgeworth Y DNA signature represented by kit 350317 in the DF27 project has a lot of reasonably close matches bearing different surnames. However, a close examination of them leads me to believe that Thacker and Knuckles are descendants of a 17th century London merchant named Swift who came to Virginia. Knuckles also belongs to the subclade of FGC23343 called FGC28370.

            Anyhow, the earliest trace of the Swifts is supposed to be in Tellisford, Somerset, quite a bit further east from Dunster, where the Moyons' English descendants were situated, but still in Somerset. I got confused trying to track any current Moyon/Mohun descendants, but the main male line survived until the early 1700s, at least.

            I don't think there is much chance that the Edgeworth participant is also a Swift because as far as I can tell the donor is descended from a branch that migrated to Ireland from north Wales in the 1600s.


            • #7
              So, to summarize, I think the evidence, as weak and circumstantial as it is, suggests that FGC23343 probably originated in Norway or in Shetland or Orkney among Norwegian colonists a thousand years or so ago. Most of the people currently tested positive for it had ancestors in western Normandy in the 10th century who, based on evidence of place names, had probably been in the Hebrides before then.


              • #8
                henderson FGC23343

                I am of the Henderson from the Shetlands referred to in this forum. My John Henderson lived in Noss about 1760 but I don'y know anything prior to that. I think he was a different branch of Hendersons on Shetland than others since the others, I believe, are I haplotype (looking at Shetland project group). Anyway, this is an interesting discussion perhaps relating me thru Vikings via France!


                • #9
                  Originally posted by larhee View Post
                  I am of the Henderson from the Shetlands referred to in this forum. My John Henderson lived in Noss about 1760 but I don'y know anything prior to that. I think he was a different branch of Hendersons on Shetland than others since the others, I believe, are I haplotype (looking at Shetland project group). Anyway, this is an interesting discussion perhaps relating me thru Vikings via France!
                  Thanks for the response.

                  Since posting this, I have noted a few other haplotypes within the Ysearch database that I believe are likely to also be FGC23343+. Most have French-sounding names but no real history before say 1800.

                  But two are quite definitely German, from areas near the border with the Netherlands. This is very different than my expectation.

                  Maybe FGC23343 is much older than just a quick glance at their haplotypes would suggest. Possibly only a subset of these are Vikings that found their way to Normandy. But this part of Germany was invaded many times by France and both of the Germans' families were located on the Rhine River, a main artery for trade for all of Europe. It's so hard to say.

                  If you have any specific observations, like knowledge of STR haplotype or Big Y matches that I am not aware of, I would be very interested. You can send me a personal message if you did not want to publish.


                  • #10
                    As a side note, it was FGC23343's presence in Shetland, and to a lesser extent, Angus, that led me to believe that it was primarily a "Viking" SNP. The clear Medieval links to Normandy of two other donors just seemed to provide persuasive support.

                    But I recognize that despite its small size, Shetland holds significant Y chromosome diversity. Or at least that there are multiple independent origins for many surnames there.

                    I have seen some online projects discussing the pedigrees of the most prominent Henderson family, and they seem all to be concentrated on the opposite end of Shetland to your ancestors.

                    Although, as far as I am aware of, two other Shetland Henderson DNA donors have published their results and pedigrees, they don't appear to match either your family or each other, and it's not clear whether which if any of them represents the true line of those prominent Hendersons.


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by benowicz View Post
                      . . . I have noted a few other haplotypes within the Ysearch database that I believe are likely to also be FGC23343+. . . (T)wo are quite definitely German, from areas near the border with the Netherlands. This is very different than my expectation.
                      I guess this could be a lame rationalization, but I have just learned that the Vikings also raided the home cities of these two Germans I speculatively call FGC23343+.

                      There are vague references to long-term occupation of various places along the Rhine, but the only large-scale colonization in the region seems to be along the Frisian coast.

                      So maybe FGC23343 is much older than the Viking age, but maybe not. There seems to be specific reason to believe that some Viking activity along the Rhine is related to the "Great Heathen Army" active in north eastern England.

                      Note that those FGC23343+ people with clear ties to England all closely match a well-documented member of the Edgeworth family, whose origins were clearly Norman, and cluster in the south-west of that country--the opposite end from the Great Heathen Army's activity.

                      Some people seem to believe that the leadership of the Great Heathen Army belonged to the Ui Imair dynasty whose primary activity was in Ireland and the Hebrides.

                      Last edited by benowicz; 26 February 2018, 01:18 PM.


                      • #12

                        Sorry to barge in here, I'm the 'Chalmers' mentioned. For what it's worth, I've always thought the name Chalmers sounded a bit to French for Scotland.


                        • #13
                          From what I've been told, 'Chalmers' is an old, maybe regional variation of the same name as 'Chambers', or 'Chamberlain' that it originated as some type of royal house hold official, in the same way that 'Stewart' and 'Butler' did.

                          I don't know much about the name, but I get the impression that it's common throughout Scotland, but particularly Orkney.

                          I think the most prominent Chalmers family was from the Angus area, but any chance your family has more remote origins in Orkney?

                          The Viking/Norman angle is kind of hard to follow unless it's associated with a specific French place name, like the Bruces and Brix.


                          • #14
                            There's no Orkney connection that I'm aware of. I and my father were born in Michigan. My Grandfather was born in Port Glasgow but his father and everyone I've been able to trace (back to 1680) were born in various places in Angus.

                            Except a 6x or so Great Grandfather married a woman from Orkney. So, there could be something but...

                            There internet explanation of the name is that it was Frenchified when a Chambers moved to France and moved back to Scotland at some point. That seems kinda hard to swallow when the name is so common in Scotland.


                            • #15
                              Just as a side note, the earliest reference I could find to the Chalmers name was in Scotland in 1313. Supposedly an inscription at a church in Aberdeen. From Burke's General Armory. There's a not very believable story about them being a branch of the Cameron clan temporarily gone to France, but the description of the church thing seems real.