R-U106 negative with FTDNA, positive with 23andMe

[jtoml3]

Hi all,

So I tested R-L21 which I was predicted for before they reverted back to the default predictions. I tested negative. In the time I waited for that result I received my 23andMe results back, which gave me the haplogroup R-U106. I got a free SNP test at FTDNA so I thought I'd test R-U106 so I could be confirmed with both companies. I came back R-U106 negative.

I have no idea why or where to go to from here. Has anyone heard of this happening before?

[Armando]

Hi all,

So I tested R-L21 which I was predicted for before they reverted back to the default predictions. I tested negative. In the time I waited for that result I received my 23andMe results back, which gave me the haplogroup R-U106. I got a free SNP test at FTDNA so I thought I'd test R-U106 so I could be confirmed with both companies. I came back R-U106 negative.

I have no idea why or where to go to from here. Has anyone heard of this happening before?

You probably misunderstood the your rest results at 23andme because they use nomenclature from 2009 http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html. The current nomenclature is at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

23andme at U106 is R1b1b2a1a1 rs16981293 C>T. You can put rs16981293 in at https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/ to see if you have C(negative or ancestral) or T (positive or derived).

23andme probably gave you R1b1b2a1a which is negative for U106, U152 and L21. Most people in that situation is are positive for P312 and for DF27 which are markers that 23andme doesn't test.

You should order P312 first then DF27 or get the BigY test.

[jtoml3]

You probably misunderstood the your rest results at 23andme because they use nomenclature from 2009 http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html. The current nomenclature is at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

23andme at U106 is R1b1b2a1a1 rs16981293 C>T. You can put rs16981293 in at https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/ to see if you have C(negative or ancestral) or T (positive or derived).

23andme probably gave you R1b1b2a1a which is negative for U106, U152 and L21. Most people in that situation is are positive for P312 and for DF27 which are markers that 23andme doesn't test.

You should order P312 first then DF27 or get the BigY test.

That did cross my mind but I wasn't expecting such a difference in data used. I used the explorer tool for rs16981293 and have the C genotype. Are you saying because of this C it confirms I'm negative for U106?

[T E Peterman]

I think anyone who is ambiguous at L11 or higher should just take the Big Y test. You will probably wind up spending that much money on testing individual SNPs, considering what is available now.

And yes, beware of nomenclature differences. 23andme shows me to be: R1b1b2a1a2d3a. ISOGG shows my haplogroup to be: R1b1a2a1a2b1a1.

23andme uses a tree that's 5 years old and doesn't appear to report upstream or terminal SNPs.

Family Tree DNA abandoned this reporting a while back & now says R L20*, which if you cross check that with the ISOGG tree, shows exactly where I fit within the current haplotree.

Timothy Peterman

[Armando]

That did cross my mind but I wasn't expecting such a difference in data used. I used the explorer tool for rs16981293 and have the C genotype. Are you saying because of this C it confirms I'm negative for U106?

Correct. Since you have C you are negative for U106. What is your haplogroyp at 23andme?

[Armando]

I think anyone who is ambiguous at L11 or higher should just take the Big Y test. You will probably wind up spending that much money on testing individual SNPs, considering what is available now.

And yes, beware of nomenclature differences. 23andme shows me to be: R1b1b2a1a2d3a. ISOGG shows my haplogroup to be: R1b1a2a1a2b1a1.

23andme uses a tree that's 5 years old and doesn't appear to report upstream or terminal SNPs.

Family Tree DNA abandoned this reporting a while back & now says R L20*, which if you cross check that with the ISOGG tree, shows exactly where I fit within the current haplotree.

Timothy Peterman

23andme does report upstream SNPs. You have to use the mutation mapper in the tools section to see them or download the
raw data file.

[jtoml3]

Correct. Since you have C you are negative for U106. What is your haplogroyp at 23andme?

R1b1b2a1a. Is it possible to look at single SNPs on the mapping tool for P312 or DF27?

[Armando]

R1b1b2a1a. Is it possible to look at single SNPs on the mapping tool for P312 or DF27?

No, because 23andme did not include P312 or DF27 in the test.

Here is the link to the mutation mapper for your haplogroup - https://www.23andme.com/you/labs/hap...roup=R1b1b2a1a

You might have a no call for rs13304168 (L52) but so do a lot of other people that end up positive for P312. You could be negative for P312 which would mean you would be negative for DF27 also. There is a project for P312- U106- people at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background but you should get a P312 test or the BigY before joining that group.

[jtoml3]

I've used the MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP Terminal Subclade Predictor which suggests I'm most likely R1b-M412.

Now, looking at this R1b chart (I know its 2013 but I couldn't find a new one), http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

If I'm likely to be L51, and I'm negative for U106 and L21, does this suggest I'm a branch of P312?

[Armando]

I've used the MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP Terminal Subclade Predictor which suggests I'm most likely R1b-M412.

Now, looking at this R1b chart (I know its 2013 but I couldn't find a new one), http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

If I'm likely to be L51, and I'm negative for U106 and L21, does this suggest I'm a branch of P312?

The SNPs tested at 23andme are from 2009 so the 2013 tree is fine. You can use a 2015 tree by using the procedure at http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/04/...-dna-analysis/

The 2015 ISOGG R tree is at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

The reason you don't show positive for rs13304168 (L52) is because a lot of people get a no call for that SNP but most of the time R1b people are positive for it when tested for it elsewhere.

You are either in a branch of P312 or a branch of P312- U106-. You can see the P312- U106- branches at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

To find out if you are negative for positive for P312 you need a P312 SNP test or a BigY test which over the long run is less expensive for determining your most recent SNP. You have a lot of other SNPs that either haven't been tested or identified and the BigY test would do that for you.

[jtoml3]

The SNPs tested at 23andme are from 2009 so the 2013 tree is fine. You can use a 2015 tree by using the procedure at http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/04/...-dna-analysis/

The 2015 ISOGG R tree is at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

The reason you don't show positive for rs13304168 (L52) is because a lot of people get a no call for that SNP but most of the time R1b people are positive for it when tested for it elsewhere.

You are either in a branch of P312 or a branch of P312- U106-. You can see the P312- U106- branches at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

To find out if you are negative for positive for P312 you need a P312 SNP test or a BigY test which over the long run is less expensive for determining your most recent SNP. You have a lot of other SNPs that either haven't been tested or identified and the BigY test would do that for you.

One of the project admins for R1b suggested I get Geno 2.0 and then I can transfer my results across to FTDNA. I've gone and ordered a kit. I would get a Big Y if they exchange rate wasn't so bad because it would be over $700.

Hopefully that process wont take too long.

[dna]

One of the project admins for R1b suggested I get Geno 2.0 and then I can transfer my results across to FTDNA. I've gone and ordered a kit. I would get a Big Y if they exchange rate wasn't so bad because it would be over $700.

Hopefully that process wont take too long.

Interesting...

Did he project admin explain why Geno 2.0 and not Big Y ?

W. (Mr.)

[jtoml3]

Interesting...

Did he project admin explain why Geno 2.0 and not Big Y ?

W. (Mr.)

No, he just stated that in order to be accurate many SNPs have to be tested at once. I'm aware Geno 2.0 probably doesn't test to the same depth as what the Big Y does, and therefore the Big Y is probably considered the gold standard.

For what I would like to know, Geno 2.0 is probably satisfactory.

[Wing_Genealogis]

Another option besides the Geno 2.0 test

While it is probably too late to be useful for yourself (since you have already ordered the Geno 2.0) there is another chip-based test which tends to refine your Y-DNA haplogroup much better than the Geno 2.0 test.

This test is the Chromo2 test by BritainsDNA (they also operate ScotlandsDNA, Ireland & Wales).

They have a small number of tests, and if you were only interested in your Y-DNA, I believe the price would be about $200 U.S. They are based in the UK.

The ChromoChip has been specifically designed for persons whose ancestry came from the British Isles (and they also had access to a Netherlands genome project). In some cases (within R1b-U106 at least) the chip actually has produced some results we have not yet found within FTDNA's Big Y test.

However, both the Geno 2.0 and Chromo2 test are chip-based tests. As such they are basically static tests, and are unable to discover previously unknown SNPs.

[Armando]

One of the project admins for R1b suggested I get Geno 2.0 and then I can transfer my results across to FTDNA. I've gone and ordered a kit. I would get a Big Y if they exchange rate wasn't so bad because it would be over $700.

Hopefully that process wont take too long.

I think that it will be several months before you get your results. The problem with Geno 2.0 is that you might be terminal for P312, DF27, or CTS4528 and Geno 2.0 only tests CTS4528 out of those. That means if you are terminal for P312 or DF27 then you will be shown terminal for P310, or P311, at Geno 2.0 which doesn't get you much further down in the SNP tree than you already are with the 23andme results.

Geno 2.0 is pretty good for people that are somewhere further down the DF27 tree since it tests a lot of SNPs downstream from DF27 but the price of Geno 2.0 is pretty high if you are terminal for P310 at Geno 2.0.

You could have, and could still, get a P312 test at www.Yseq.net for $17.50 plus $5 for a one time kit purchase and if positive then the DF27 or CTS4528 test if negative for P312. The results come in within two weeks after they receive your samples. So you would at least know if you are P312 and DF27 or CTS4528 before the Geno 2.0 results come in.