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Italian man R-M512

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  • Italian man R-M512

    My husband was recently tested for the YDNA to 37 markers. His Haplogroup was reported as R-M512. He has no matches at 37 markers and only one at 25 markers, who is at a genetic distance of 2, and who has a Slavic surname. Most of the ancestors of this match are from Germany and Ukraine. There are many matches at 12 markers, most of whom are also Eastern European, but also some Scandanavian.

    My husband's surname is rare in Italy and his family can be traced in the town where he was born, and where we live, to the early 18th century. The surname has been reported in our town since medieval times. His Family Finder results showed 31% Asia Minor heritage, which we assumed might have come through his mother's family. His maternal grandmother's surname indicates Turkish origin, although that surname dates back to the middle ages in Italy as well. Rural Italy has many little communities whose families have lived there from time immemorial, so 31% of a particular ethnic background could mean a recent event, or it could mean a community that has been intermarried for centuries. He has no close Family Finder matches, but many of his matches do have Italian heritage, and none seem to have an Asia Minor background. One distant match has ancestors from another small town near here.

    R-M512 appears to be a rare haplogroup, but is most frequent in Eastern Europe. I can find out almost nothing about it on the internet, and it seems to be extremely rare in Italy.

    Very few people in Italy have DNA testing done, so I doubt that further testing (67 markers or 111 markers) will bring up some new information. However, we would like to know some plausible reason as to what events might have brought this DNA to our remote corner of Italy. I just don't see any Ukrainian traveling salesmen coming around here to cause a non-paternal event.

    Is there any further testing that might illuminate this result?

  • #2
    Nothing much

    I'm replying to my own post so that I can turn on a subscription to the thread.
    Last edited by bvlenci; 20 January 2015, 10:24 AM. Reason: misspelling

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    • #3
      Cossack Connection

      There appears to have been an early Cossack connection with Italy, as Cossacks complete with topknot are carved into an early (alter support?) in Italy. I'm going from memory. If my memory is correct, the origin of the Cossacks (why they would have been in Italy) is lost in history. I also remember that the carving was in the north somewhere. I'll see if I can run down a reference. Perhaps somebody else has come across this ...
      Last edited by MikeP; 20 January 2015, 01:46 PM. Reason: Added sentence

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      • #4
        Nothing yet

        I've done a short internet search, and so far have only come up with Napoleonic times when there was war against the French in northern Italy and from more recent times. I'm assuming that you're looking for something further back in time than that. It's hard to do a search for a picture and commentary that's only remembered ...

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        • #5
          A Cossack connection would be 500 year old at most

          Anyway, you did not mention the area of Italy, however Slavic people from the area that used to be Yugoslavia were raiding the Northern Italy, as far as Lombardy until around 1000 AD.

          Also Slavic pirates (from the same area) were very active not only on the Italian coast of Adriatic Sea, but went as far as Sicily.

          And always one has to remember that a lone male individual could have travelled to a distant location a thousand or even let's say 800 years ago (just beyond genealogical timeframe horizon). An envoy, a merchant, a sailor, a soldier, etc.

          He did not need to travel very far, as the Kingdom of the Lombards, then the Republic of Venice were bordering Slavic territories. His brothers could have stayed behind in the areas that became a part of the Habsburg Monarchy, and then centuries later the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Could their descendants end up in the area of modern Ukraine or modern Germany? Surely they could, they would not need to cross any borders...

          Y-DNA is just one tiny DNA connection

          W.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by bvlenci View Post
            R-M512 appears to be a rare haplogroup, but is most frequent in Eastern Europe. I can find out almost nothing about it on the internet, and it seems to be extremely rare in Italy.
            On the internet, R-M512 is more commonly known as R1a1a. It is certainly not rare--hundreds of millions of men in Eastern Europe and South Asia belong to R1a1a. You are correct, though, that it is uncommon in Italy. You can search for Italy in the online spreadsheet of the R1a Project. I suggest you join that project and ask for interpretation/advice.

            At the greatest extent of their expansion, the Slavs occupied a large part of Austria, including East Tyrol. In one study, 7 out of 67 men in northeast Italy belonged to R-M17 (another name for R-M512).
            Last edited by lgmayka; 20 January 2015, 05:05 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by bvlenci View Post
              My husband's surname is rare in Italy and his family can be traced in the town where he was born, and where we live, to the early 18th century. The surname has been reported in our town since medieval times. His Family Finder results showed 31% Asia Minor heritage, which we assumed might have come through his mother's family. His maternal grandmother's surname indicates Turkish origin, although that surname dates back to the middle ages in Italy as well. Rural Italy has many little communities whose families have lived there from time immemorial, so 31% of a particular ethnic background could mean a recent event, or it could mean a community that has been intermarried for centuries. He has no close Family Finder matches, but many of his matches do have Italian heritage, and none seem to have an Asia Minor background. One distant match has ancestors from another small town near here.
              I can't comment on your husband's haplogroup, which is not that common in Italy, as you mention.

              I do want to comment on what you've written above about his 31% Asia Minor in myOrigins. The first thing to realize is that the admixture percentages given in this test can go back 1,000 to 10,000 years ago. So, if you have no evidence that your husband has any relatively recent ancestry from that part of the world, I think it's safe to assume that the percentage represents deep ancestry.

              The fact is that all Europeans have some deep ancestry from Asia Minor. I'm not that familiar with what percentage of Asia Minor those with northern European ancestry are given, but I believe that by and large they're given a small percentage (less than 10%).

              I do know that, in the case of those with full Sicilian and southern Italian ancestry, it's not uncommon for them to be given 40-50% Middle Eastern, most of it from Asia Minor. Given the position of Italy in the south of Europe on the Mediterranean, there's been 10,000 years of contact with Middle Eastern people, going back to the introduction of agriculture in Europe by farmers from the Middle East. Sicily/southern Italy have had significantly more contact with Middle Eastern people, including from Asia Minor, than northern Europeans have had, as recently as 1,000 years ago.

              I don't know what part of Italy your husband is from, but based on what I wrote above, I don't see anything unusual in myOrigins giving him 31% Asia Minor.

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              • #8
                Take the advice of lgmayka and join the projects, seek the admins advice. But keep in mind that the higher you test the more Genetic Distance matches are increased, ie at Y25 only 0 GD's reported, Y37 2 GD, Y67 4 GD reported but at Y111 matches up to 9 GD's are reported. So you may have matches at the higher level that don't show lower. A maternal 1c of mine has many at Y67 that don't match lower down, and he has some Y111 not matching lower down.

                Like you I have Italian ancestry, I-Z63 not common there.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by bvlenci View Post
                  My husband was recently tested for the YDNA to 37 markers. His Haplogroup was reported as R-M512. He has no matches at 37 markers and only one at 25 markers, who is at a genetic distance of 2, and who has a Slavic surname. Most of the ancestors of this match are from Germany and Ukraine. There are many matches at 12 markers, most of whom are also Eastern European, but also some Scandanavian.

                  My husband's surname is rare in Italy and his family can be traced in the town where he was born, and where we live, to the early 18th century. The surname has been reported in our town since medieval times. His Family Finder results showed 31% Asia Minor heritage, which we assumed might have come through his mother's family. His maternal grandmother's surname indicates Turkish origin, although that surname dates back to the middle ages in Italy as well. Rural Italy has many little communities whose families have lived there from time immemorial, so 31% of a particular ethnic background could mean a recent event, or it could mean a community that has been intermarried for centuries. He has no close Family Finder matches, but many of his matches do have Italian heritage, and none seem to have an Asia Minor background. One distant match has ancestors from another small town near here.

                  R-M512 appears to be a rare haplogroup, but is most frequent in Eastern Europe. I can find out almost nothing about it on the internet, and it seems to be extremely rare in Italy.

                  Very few people in Italy have DNA testing done, so I doubt that further testing (67 markers or 111 markers) will bring up some new information. However, we would like to know some plausible reason as to what events might have brought this DNA to our remote corner of Italy. I just don't see any Ukrainian traveling salesmen coming around here to cause a non-paternal event.

                  Is there any further testing that might illuminate this result?
                  may I ask what his surname is?

                  There have been many papers on Alpine Italy since 2010 and R1a is also found in the ancient Ladins ( not Latins) who have been in the alps from the bronze-age ( nearly 2000 years before the slavs arrived ).

                  Then again, before the Venetian Republic outlawed slavery in 1435, they where involved in white slavery from Azov ( next to crimea.

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                  • #10
                    More information

                    We live in central Italy. The area was Celtic in pre-Roman times, and was later colonized by the Romans. After the fall of the Roman Empire, it was part of the area called the Byzantine Pentapoli, or "Five Cities", governed by the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire.

                    Finally, the area was invaded and settled by Lombards in the middle ages (around the 11th century), who founded most of the towns that exist today. It was much contested by the various factions during the wars between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines, and ended up as part of the Papal States, until the unification of Italy.

                    I wonder if the Lombards might have been partly or mostly R1a1a? However, if so, that haplogroup should be fairly common in Italy. I've also read that the Celts were a pretty hetergeneous group, so maybe some of them were R1a1a.

                    By the way, I'm not Italian myself. Both of my parents were Irish. Since my husband is even more stubborn than I am, I'm pretty sure he has Celtic roots! (Just joking...) However, weren't there Celts in Asia Minor? Galatia? That might explain the 33% from Asia Minor hypothesized by the Family Finder result.

                    The particular tribe of Celts who lived in our area, the Senones, also had territory in France, in the vicinity of Sens.

                    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...534663/Senones

                    The city of Senigallia in Italy also takes its name from the Senones, and is now a sister city of Sens.
                    Last edited by bvlenci; 22 January 2015, 06:41 AM. Reason: added a few words

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                    • #11
                      Two R-M512 in Finland whose paternal ancestor came from Germany

                      Originally posted by lgmayka View Post
                      On the internet, R-M512 is more commonly known as R1a1a. It is certainly not rare--hundreds of millions of men in Eastern Europe and South Asia belong to R1a1a. You are correct, though, that it is uncommon in Italy. You can search for Italy in the online spreadsheet of the R1a Project. I suggest you join that project and ask for interpretation/advice.

                      At the greatest extent of their expansion, the Slavs occupied a large part of Austria, including East Tyrol. In one study, 7 out of 67 men in northeast Italy belonged to R-M17 (another name for R-M512).
                      Perhaps he is R-Z92? We have rare R-M512 in Finland, two paternal relatives without other matches. Their paternal father came from Germany in the 1600's.

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                      • #12
                        R1a1a1 in Italy

                        hg R1a1a is believed to be prevalent amongst the Sarmatians.

                        There were 17 Sarmatian praefectorums in Italy.

                        The Alani a Sarmatian tribe settled in Orleans, around Orleans and in the area subsequently called Normandy.

                        Very probable that some Sarmatian descendants became identified as Normans, and the Normans invaded England and Southern England/Sicily about the same time as England + or -

                        But Rome not only imported slaves from all over the known world, but was a melting pot, as it's trade and economy enticed merchants and traders from all parts of it's empire, and then there arose the Eastern Empire, which include lands where a lot of R1a1a resided, and the inhabitants of the Roman Empire were not static, they traveled unbelievable distances on foot, horse and wagon.
                        Last edited by WilliamFarrar; 18 October 2015, 08:59 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bvlenci View Post
                          My husband was recently tested for the YDNA to 37 markers. His Haplogroup was reported as R-M512. He has no matches at 37 markers and only one at 25 markers, who is at a genetic distance of 2, and who has a Slavic surname. Most of the ancestors of this match are from Germany and Ukraine. There are many matches at 12 markers, most of whom are also Eastern European, but also some Scandanavian.

                          My husband's surname is rare in Italy and his family can be traced in the town where he was born, and where we live, to the early 18th century. The surname has been reported in our town since medieval times. His Family Finder results showed 31% Asia Minor heritage, which we assumed might have come through his mother's family. His maternal grandmother's surname indicates Turkish origin, although that surname dates back to the middle ages in Italy as well. Rural Italy has many little communities whose families have lived there from time immemorial, so 31% of a particular ethnic background could mean a recent event, or it could mean a community that has been intermarried for centuries. He has no close Family Finder matches, but many of his matches do have Italian heritage, and none seem to have an Asia Minor background. One distant match has ancestors from another small town near here.

                          R-M512 appears to be a rare haplogroup, but is most frequent in Eastern Europe. I can find out almost nothing about it on the internet, and it seems to be extremely rare in Italy.

                          Very few people in Italy have DNA testing done, so I doubt that further testing (67 markers or 111 markers) will bring up some new information. However, we would like to know some plausible reason as to what events might have brought this DNA to our remote corner of Italy. I just don't see any Ukrainian traveling salesmen coming around here to cause a non-paternal event.

                          Is there any further testing that might illuminate this result?
                          I recently took the familytreedna Y-37 test and was given the R-M198. I then upgraded to the BIG-Y 700 and landed on R-FT33212. I wonder if your husband and I am connected.

                          Screenshot_20220901-192935_Chrome.jpg

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