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Where did R1b-L51 and its subclades come from?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    Apparently the man’s confusion stems in part from the fact that thus far no R1b-L51 (or subclades) has been found in Yamnaya remains. Yamnaya has been overwhelmingly R1b-Z2103 (and subclades) so far. This has caused a number of people to conclude that neither R1b-L51 nor R1a-M417 will ever be found in Yamnaya, despite the fact that L51 and Z2103 are brother R1b clades under L23.

    Similarly, a few years ago, many people thought R1b-L51 would never show up in Corded Ware, because at that point most Corded Ware remains had been R1a-M417. Then R1b-L51 began to show up in Corded Ware, and things changed. In fact, the oldest Corded Ware remains thus far discovered and tested were R1b-L151 (downstream of L51).

    The same sort of thing could happen with Yamnaya, since much of the steppe is unexcavated and untested.
    A related issue is that popular images/maps continue to highlight the Pontic Steppe / Yamnaya culture as the point of origin, with arrows going west and east from there to depict the respective migrations. But if Yamnaya was mostly R1b-Z2103, then surely it would be more correct to think of them as distant cousins rather than direct ancestors of Early Corded Ware (given that these were mostly R1b-L51). The absence of R1a-M417 in Yamnaya is also interesting, because that obviously came to dominate Late Corded Ware, and subclades made it to central and south Asia somehow. So those later folks can't be regarded as patrilineal descendants of Yamnaya males either. On the Yfull site there's a very old R1a-Z645 sample from Estonia (directly under R1a-M417), dated to 4400 ybp (range 4000-4800 ybp). Additional samples, albeit ca. 1000 years younger, are from the Bashkortostan area of Russia. That's quite a range! On the other hand, I also have some issues with the notion of a common Forest Steppe origin for both R1b-L51 and R1a-M417, because only the latter really had an impact in South Asia (specifically the R1a-L657 clade and its descendants)...

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    • #62
      Nick Patterson addresses some of this in a recent interview with Razib Khan. What he says may surprise you.

      https://unsupervisedlearning.libsyn.com/nick

      Toward the end of the interview, Patterson says this:

      I'll give you a heads up. You mentioned the Corded Ware. We believed, in a paper about five years ago, that Corded Ware were getting massive amounts of ancestry from the Russian steppe. There was a population of pastoralists on the steppe called the Yamnaya. That was what we thought five years ago and there have been numerous papers saying, "No, no, it shouldn't be Yamnaya because of this and that. It's probably some other group that's not Yamnaya and you haven't genotyped them yet," or something like that. Well, you know, heads up: we're finding numerous actual relatives between Corded Ware and Yamnaya.
      Last edited by Stevo; 28 July 2022, 05:39 PM.

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      • #63
        Also check out the video from David Reich at the link below. At about 46:17 in the video you can hear him say what I quote right here:

        So we now have data that's new data that is led by Harald Ringbauer where we can actually really ask the question is it the Yamnaya or some people very very close to them or is it some other group that has ancestry similar to them that is contributing.

        So we have many sampled Yamnaya genomes now and we can tie them now within generations to people who spread steppe ancestry west. That's using this idea that I mentioned to you before of 23andMe for ancient genomes. We look for close cousins between these ancient genomes, and we find many close cousins between Yamnaya, who are these ones here in this grid [indicating a table that appears on screen at about 46:54], and bright bright colors indicates close relationship, and Corded Ware, which is one of the first archaeological culture in central Europe and eastern Europe that contains steppe ancestry, and there's lots of close relationships, which means these individuals must have shared ancestors within generations
        .
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8

        Recall too that R1b-L51 and R1b-Z2103 are brother clades under R1b-L23. Here's what FTDNA Discover says about R-L23:

        The R-L23 Story


        Haplogroup R-L23 represents a man who is estimated to have been born around 5,800 years ago, plus or minus 750 years.

        That corresponds to about 3700 BCE with a 95% probability he was born between 4517 and 3014 BCE.

        R-L23's paternal line was formed when it branched off from R-M269 and the rest of mankind about 6,000 years ago, plus or minus 800 years.
        That might be a little young, but the broad range is probably about right. So L23 arose about the time PIE was getting started.

        Remember what I said about Corded Ware and R1a-M417. A few years ago, everyone thought Corded Ware was all R1a-M417 and nothing else. That turned out to be very wrong.
        Last edited by Stevo; 28 July 2022, 07:00 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by StefG View Post

          . . . On the other hand, I also have some issues with the notion of a common Forest Steppe origin for both R1b-L51 and R1a-M417, because only the latter really had an impact in South Asia (specifically the R1a-L657 clade and its descendants)...
          Sorry for posting yet another reply, but I can’t help wondering why this is a problem for you. Forest steppe too small to hold two Y-DNA
          haplogroups?

          Note that R1b-L51 appears to be older in Corded Ware than R1a-M417 and also has a more westerly distribution, both of which make sense, if CW as R1b-L51 moved west first. If L51 moved west, and M417 stayed behind, only to move west later, and also south, that would explain the difference in the distributions of the two haplogroups.

          But I’m not sure CW came from the forest steppe. CW may have its roots in the CWC-X Horizon (3000-2900 BC), which seems to mark the transition between Yamnaya and Corded Ware. There are CWC-X Horizon burials in SE Poland at Hubinek and Srednia. They are like CW in some ways and like Yamnaya in others, for example, in the use of ochre. Linderholm mentions CWC-X in her recent CW paper.

          Reich and company have a lot of unpublished samples, probably many of them Yamnaya. Only they and God know what Y-DNA haplogroups are represented. Maybe not, but some of them could be R1b-L51, and some could be R1a-M417. Reich doesn’t seem to care that much about Y-DNA haplogroups, so there’s no reason to think he would be in a hurry to make any announcements on that front.

          In his book, Who We Are and How We Got Here, Reich writes as if he already knows that R1b-L51 came from the steppe, so maybe he knows of some ancient samples we don’t know about yet.
          Last edited by Stevo; 28 July 2022, 11:18 PM.

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          • #65
            I agree, R1b-L23 is rather early, most likely pre-Yamnaya. So where they lived is anyone's guess. Maybe their offshoot R1b-L51 initially multiplied in the CWC-X Horizon area, whilst R1a-M417 established itself in the eastern Forest Steppe and began migrating later. Or something vaguely along those lines (I'd rather not be too dogmatic about it). It's certainly very puzzling that autosomal DNA studies suggest Yamnaya as the source of CW whereas current Y-DNA evidence cannot link the two. But maybe you're right and there are unpublished Yamnaya samples that are R1b-L51 and R1a-M417...

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            • #66
              I wouldn’t guess that because R1a-M417 ended up big in Iranian and Indo-Iranian groups that therefore it started farther east in the forest steppe than everyone else. The movements of those groups into South Asia was a fairly late development, perhaps from Sintashta, and could reflect the influence of earlier movements from farther west that did not have their sources in the forest steppe (like Fatyanovo, Balanovo, Abashevo, etc.).

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              • #67
                Yamnaya is meant to describe a very broad cultural horizon spread out over a huge area, a horizon comprising a number of different variant subgroups, the culmination of the mixing and assimilation of a number of different Eneolithic steppe cultures. We know that R1b-L23 arose about the time linguists tell us PIE was forming on the steppe. R1b-L51 and R1b-Z2103 are brother clades under L23 (as I mentioned before). I can’t see any reason to think that the entirety of the Yamnaya cultural horizon was formed from groups that belonged solely to R1b-Z2103. It’s really odd then, if that is truly the case, that R1b-L51 first shows up in early Corded Ware, loaded with Yamnaya autosomal DNA.

                Where was L51 hiding before then, if it wasn’t somewhere in a Yamnaya subgroup? Where did it get all that Yamnaya DNA?
                Last edited by Stevo; 29 July 2022, 04:57 PM.

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                • #68
                  Here's a graphic I created about R1b-L23 and two of its immediate and probably most well known offspring, R1b-L51 and R1b-Z2103. A picture, as they say, is worth a thousand words.

                  R1b-L23 Descendant Tree_Yamnaya.jpg

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                  • #69
                    What's also interesting is that the Afanasievo culture (Altai / southern Siberia) was overwhelmingly R1b-L23 too. Given that it can be dated to roughly the same period as earliest Corded Ware in Europe (possibly even earlier), it seems like the initial migrations were all about R1b-L23. It makes you wonder where R1a-M417 was at this time. The later back-migration of some eastern CW folks that supposedly led to the formation of cultures like Abashevo (and its successors Sintashta and Andronovo) obviously must have happened at a time when their home turf had turned mostly R1a-M417,as those spin-offs were dominated by this clade too. It's all very interesting! As more ancient samples are investigated I'm sure we'll get a much better picture of what happened.

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                    • #70
                      Good post. Wish we could actually hit the “Like” button and have it work.

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