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Where did R1b-L51 and its subclades come from?

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  • #46
    It makes sense to me that R1b-P312 arose among CW males in Central Europe, with the branch leading to R1b-L21 heading northwest, the branch leading to U152 heading east, and the branch leading to DF27 heading southwest. Yes, I realize both U152 and DF27 stem from ZZ11, but they obviously did not expand together or in the same direction.

    Bell Beaker was just a development from Single Grave Corded Ware. In other words, the Dutch Model was essentially right.
    Last edited by Stevo; 7 September 2021, 05:56 PM.

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    • #47
      https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi6941

      The paper at the link above suggests that R1a-M417 replaced all other Y-DNA lineages in Corded Ware by the Late Corded Ware period (after 2600 BC). I don't think that is quite what happened. The authors are missing the fact that R1b-L151, in the form of R1b-P312, persisted and was dominant in Bell Beaker, and that Bell Beaker was simply the western development in Single Grave Corded Ware.

      Treating Bell Beaker as completely separate from Corded Ware makes it look as though R1b-L151 disappeared or nearly disappeared from Corded Ware by 2600 BC and was replaced by R1a-M417. However, if R1b-L151 was predominant in Single Grave Corded Ware and became Bell Beaker, then no such replacement took place. R1b-L151 simply moved west, and R1a-M417 moved in behind it. Thus, if there was any "replacement", it was geographic. R1a-M417 came to dominate in the East because R1b-L151 had moved west, and not because R1a-M417 had eliminated or outbred R1b-L151 within Corded Ware, as that paper seems to imply.

      IMHO the Dutch Model of Beaker origins is the closest to correct, and it posits that Beaker developed from Single Grave Corded Ware in the Netherlands. Take a look at the gradual transition from Corded Ware All Over Ornamented beakers to the Bell Beaker maritime beaker to get the idea. You can see the gradual expansion of undecorated zones in AOO beakers and on into the bell beaker.

      Dutch Model_CW AOO beakers to Bell Beakers.jpg
      Last edited by Stevo; 11 September 2021, 03:56 PM.

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      • #48
        Here's what the authors of that paper think happened with R1b-P312. They're probably right.

        R1b-P312 CWC.jpg

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Stevo View Post
          Here's what the authors of that paper think happened with R1b-P312. They're probably right.

          R1b-P312 CWC.jpg
          The authors did not mention DF27. I added that part.

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          • #50
            It's really cool to be the Y-DNA descendant of some Corded Ware man of long ago and, before him, of some steppe pastoralist. I've learned a lot from DNA testing that is really interesting.

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            • #51
              Here are some photos from the burial of Bohemian Corded Ware sample OBR003 (aka Obříství_166) which was R-L151(xU106xP312) and dated to 2911-2875 calBC.

              Corded Ware males were usually buried lying on the their right sides facing south, with their heads to the west. Corded Ware females were also buried facing south but lying on their left sides so that their heads were to the east. You can see from the photo of the skeleton below that OBR003 had the typical Corded Ware male burial orientation.

              Corded Ware_OBR003_R1b-L151_with labels.jpeg
              Last edited by Stevo; 25 September 2021, 04:18 PM.

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              • #52
                My updated R1b Corded Ware Google spreadsheet. I got the list of CW R1b guys from the Papac paper from Rich Rocca.

                https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                  Here are some photos from the burial of Bohemian Corded Ware sample OBR003 (aka Obříství_166) which was R-L151(xU106xP312) and dated to 2911-2875 calBC.

                  Corded Ware males were usually buried lying on the their right sides facing south, with their heads to the west. Corded Ware females were also buried facing south but lying on their left sides so that their heads were to the east. You can see from the photo of the skeleton below that OBR003 had the typical Corded Ware male burial orientation.

                  Corded Ware_OBR003_R1b-L151_with labels.jpeg
                  Here is the usual Corded Ware burial pattern. There were exceptions in various places and among different Corded Ware subcultures, but sexual dimorphism (men buried one way, women another) always prevailed.

                  Corded Ware burial orientation.jpg

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                  • #54
                    So now we're still waiting on that paper about Single Grave Corded Ware in the Netherlands, NW Germany, and Denmark. It's supposed to have a lot of R1b-L51 in it, and I know it at least has some, because I got a sneak preview of one of the results. Can't say more, but I'm looking forward to it.

                    Corded Ware family_wagon_I like beer.jpg

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