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Where did R1b-L51 and its subclades come from?

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  • #16
    Hey! I edited the map I posted a few posts back in order to add the second of the two oldest CWC-X horizon burial sites. I also cut out the quote about Budzhak, since Budzhak might be a little late to have been in on the origin of Corded Ware (but it's still a possibility they were). Here it is:

    Corded Ware spins off Beaker_map_CWC-X_no Budzhak quote.jpg
    Last edited by Stevo; 9 March 2021, 07:04 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post

      I was hoping to get a clear shot, but thanks for the bigger one anyway.

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      • #18
        A few days ago, I sent the link to the Reich video that is the main topic of this thread to three archaeologists, two Ukrainians and one Pole, who often publish papers about Corded Ware and Yamnaya. I heard back from two of them already. I thought it might be helpful to them if they knew about this latest development.

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        • #19
          I also let the author of the Eurogenes Blog know about this video. I am surprised he has not yet addressed it in a new post there. Am I the only one who sees this as an important development?

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          • #20
            The next two quotes come from pages 248-249 of James Mallory's book, In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology and Myth; London and New York: Thames & Hudson, 1989.

            Regarding the unlikely possibility that the Corded Ware culture (CWC) arose via a migration west of the Middle Dnieper culture:


            Originally posted by James Mallory
            Artemenko, and others, see in the Middle Dnieper culture the roots of some of the other local variants of the Corded Ware horizon in easternmost Europe, but no one seriously entertains the hypothesis that the Middle Dnieper culture is the earliest expression of the Corded Ware horizon, the one from which it later expanded westwards.
            On the steppe origin of the CWC:

            Originally posted by James Mallory
            While the Corded Ware variant most proximate to the steppe cannot be seen as the point of origin for the Corded Ware culture, many archaeologists still envisage a major influential role here from the steppe cultures. One of the foremost authorities on the Corded Ware horizon, Miroslav Buchvaldek, has, on several recent occasions, addressed the problem of Corded Ware origins. He emphasizes the methodological problems of demonstrating whether the Corded Ware horizon was the product of an invasion or local development. According to both models, the number of sites belonging to either the intrusive culture or to the transitional phase between a former Neolithic culture and the subsequent Corded Ware horizon would be extremely small, a generation’s worth of sites perhaps constituting no more than 5 per cent of the potential archaeological remains. The odds of discovering enough intrusive or transitional sites to establish a convincing pattern would consequently be extremely small.
            The part of that last quote that I put in bold is interesting, because now we not only have ancient DNA, which indicates CWC's genetic relationship to Yamnaya, but we also have a couple of recently discovered intrusive sites of the "Pre-Corded" CWC-X horizon (3000-2900 BC) in Małopolska in SE Poland: one at Średnia, and one at Hubinek.

            The following quote is from Polish archaeologist and CWC expert Piotr Włodarczak, in his abstract,
            Eastern impulse in cultural and demographic changing during the ending southeastern Polish Eneolithic”, from the Abstract Book of the 2019 “Yamnaya Interactions” conference, University of Helsinki, 25-26 April 2019.


            Originally posted by Piotr Włodarczak
            In the IIIrd millennium BC, four stages of latitudinal relations stand out, resulting in changes in the funeral rite of the Małopolska communities: I – (ca. 3000-2900 BCE) Pre-Corded, related to the appearance of the oldest kurgan communities (horizon CWC-X), II – (ca. 2800-2600 BCE) associated with the oldest Corded Ware horizon (horizon CWC-A), III – (ca. 2600-2550 BCE) linked to the migration of Middle Dnieper groups and the appearance of features of Catacombnaya culture and IV – (ca. 2400/2300-2000 BCE) associated with the Bell Beakers ritual and the Mierzanowice (Early Bronze Age) communities.
            This is from geneticist Anna Linderholm on the CWC-X horizon and the site at Hubinek, Małopolska, Poland, from pages 2-3 of the Supplementary Information of her paper, “Corded Ware cultural complexity uncovered using genomic and isotopic analysis from south-eastern Poland” (2020).

            Originally posted by Anna Linderholm
            At the same time, the possibility that steppe communities dispersed into Małopolska regions was indicated - starting from the turn of the fourth and third millennium BCE. This phenomenon, called the "CWC-X horizon" [10, 13, 14], would precede the rather static formalisation of the CWC barrow ritual, i.e. the A horizon. Until recently, this was only a theoretical idea. Recently, this has been confirmed with the discovery of graves with skeletons coloured with ochre in burials at site 2 in Hubinek, dated to 3000-2900 BCE [15]: supplement; see also [16]. The barrow burials of the older phase of the CWC - both from Małopolska and from other regions of Europe - have not been the subject of archaeogenetic research so far.
            Back to page 249 of Mallory's book for one last quote that shows that Buchvaldek was ahead of his time.

            Originally posted by James Mallory
            Buchvaldek does note the similarities between the Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures, such as tumulus, flexed supine burials, corded ornament, heavily pastoral component, absence of settlements, and several other items of grave accompaniment. He thus considers that the Corded Ware culture shows stronger ties with the Yamnaya culture than it exhibits with any other culture, though he admits that there are also striking differences between these two cultures.
            Last edited by Stevo; 15 March 2021, 01:25 PM.

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            • #21
              Probably no one here now remembers this thread from back in September of 2006. I may not have been right in every exact detail, but it looks like ancient DNA has proven me mostly right. Back then what I posted was considered crazy.

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              • #22
                I don't think any of the people who argued against me back in 2006 are still around here now talking about genetics, like Johnserrat. Too bad. It would be nice to see what they have to say now, but they probably haven't kept up with the latest developments in ancient DNA anyway.
                Last edited by Stevo; 22 March 2021, 01:14 PM.

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                • #23
                  Interesting new video from David Anthony.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhlzOj8ouaw

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                    Interesting new video from David Anthony.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhlzOj8ouaw
                    Apparently there are a whole lot of ancient genomes that Reich and others have tested but which have not been published yet, including the one from the famous Csongrad kurgan in eastern Hungary shown in the photo below, which dates from Marija Gimbutas's Kurgan Wave 1 (4500-4200 BC).

                    Csongrad_Kurgan Wave 1 skeleton 4400-4200 BC eastern Hungary.jpg

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                    • #25
                      Here's a new video clip from David Anthony discussing the source of the CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer) DNA in Yamnaya:

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MOrEA84qvo

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                      • #26
                        Here's another interesting item: the Razib Khan podcast of his recent interview of Nick Patterson from David Reich's team: https://unsupervisedlearning.libsyn.com/nick

                        Near the end of the interview, Patterson talks briefly about finding Corded Ware and Yamnaya individuals who were actual relatives. Here's a quote:

                        Originally posted by Nick Patterson
                        I'll give you a heads up. You mentioned the Corded Ware. We believed, in a paper about five years ago, that Corded Ware were getting massive amounts of ancestry from the Russian steppe. There was a population of pastoralists on the steppe called the Yamnaya. That was what we thought five years ago and there have been numerous papers saying, "No, no, it shouldn't be Yamnaya because of this and that. It's probably some other group that's not Yamnaya and you haven't genotyped them yet," or something like that. Well, you know, heads up: we're finding numerous actual relatives between Corded Ware and Yamnaya.

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                        • #27
                          There are still people arguing, "No, no, it shouldn't be Yamnaya because of this and that. It's probably some other group that's not Yamnaya and you haven't genotyped them yet," despite what Patterson, Reich and Anthony have said recently. Baffling.

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                          • #28
                            Still waiting for some new papers featuring ancient R1b-L51.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                              Still waiting for some new papers featuring ancient R1b-L51.
                              People may find me looking like one of these guys before any new scientific papers appear.

                              skeleton tavern.jpg

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                              • #30
                                Corded Ware spins off Beaker_map_CWC-X_no Budzhak quote.jpgI tweaked my map a little. I still believe it's mostly right. Still waiting on a number of studies rumored to have direct bearing on this topic.
                                Last edited by Stevo; 23 May 2021, 05:48 PM. Reason: Last minute change to map

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