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Where did R1b-L51 and its subclades come from?

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  • Where did R1b-L51 and its subclades come from?

    Probably most of you know that R1b-L51 has been found in ancient Corded Ware samples from SE Poland, Germany, and from Switzerland. Check out the new video from David Reich, especially at around 45:00 and after. Reich says he can show that Corded Ware was descended from Yamnaya, because now they are able to see distant cousin relationships among ancient DNA samples. It also looks like Corded Ware was the product of the mixing of Yamnaya males with some Globular Amphora females. Corded Ware was mostly Yamnaya, since the proportion of Yamnaya DNA in CWC ranges from about 60% - 80%, and the Y-DNA haplogroups are Yamnaya Y-DNA haplogroups.

    This is HUGE news for us R1b-L51 guys, because it indicates that R1b-L51 will probably be found in Yamnaya. (BTW, if you are R1b and of central and/or western European descent, you are probably R1b-L51.)

    Last edited by Stevo; 5 March 2021, 03:19 PM.

  • #2
    If you are wondering what Yamnaya is, check out the video below.

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    • #3
      Wish I could get a close look at the table that appears about 46:50 into the Reich video (in the first post above), the one that charts the cousin relationships between Yamnaya individuals and Corded Ware individuals.

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      • #4
        A couple of months ago I made the map below by adapting Map B from Figure 11 on page 20 of the recent Nordqvist and Heyd paper, "The Forgotten Child of the Wider Corded Ware Family: Russian Fatyanovo Culture in Context". It shows Yamnaya as the source of Corded Ware.

        I'm not saying the Dniester valley was the only route for Yamnaya, but it certainly seems to have been one of them.

        Note: The boxes are not meant to represent the exact locations of the events they describe, and the arrows indicate general rather than exact routes.

        Corded Ware spins off Beaker_map_CWC-X zone focus.jpg
        Last edited by Stevo; 9 March 2021, 06:51 PM.

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        • #5
          BTW, did you all notice the big paper coming on ancient Britain? Reich mentions it starting about 1:01:55 into his video above. It has over 800 ancient samples from Britain. It is Patterson et al, currently "in revision", so they're tweaking it in preparation for publication. That should be a good one.

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          • #6
            Take a look at the map from Narasimhan et al (2019) that shows the spread of Yamnaya ancestry into Europe and South Asia.

            The succession in Northern Europe was 1. Yamnaya; 2. Corded Ware; 3. Bell Beaker. The arrow going into Britain c. 2400 BC was Beaker, which was an off-shoot of Single Grave Corded Ware.

            Yamnaya Steppe Pastoralists_Impact map.jpg

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            • #7
              Thanks for this interesting information!

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              • #8
                You're welcome!

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                • #9
                  Going back to the Reich video in the first post above, I transcribed the relevant remarks, as briefly as possible, with the help of closed captioning. Here they are, beginning about 46:17 into the video:

                  Originally posted by David Reich
                  So we now have data that's new data that is led by Harald Ringbauer where we can actually really ask the question is it the Yamnaya or some people very very close to them or is it some other group that has ancestry similar to them that is contributing.

                  So we have many sampled Yamnaya genomes now and we can tie them now within generations to people who spread steppe ancestry west. That's using this idea that I mentioned to you before of 23andMe for ancient genomes. We look for close cousins between these ancient genomes, and we find many close cousins between Yamnaya, who are these ones here in this grid [indicating a table that appears on screen at about 46:54], and bright bright colors indicates close relationship, and Corded Ware, which is one of the first archaeological culture in central Europe and eastern Europe that contains steppe ancestry, and there's lots of close relationships, which means these individuals must have shared ancestors within generations.

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                  • #10
                    I was thinking that most guys who have their Y-DNA tested with FTDNA and are R1b start out with an R-M269 prediction. They have not been SNP tested nor are they likely to even know what a SNP is, so they don't know whether or not they are R1b-L51.

                    Well, keeping things brief, a SNP is a Single Nucleotide Polymorphism, which is just a change at a single place on the Y chromosome when compared with the reference sequence maintained by HUGO, i.e., the Human Genome Organization. These changes, or SNPs (pronounced "snips"), once they are discovered, are assigned names: usually a combination of letters and numbers. The "M269" in the prediction you got from FTDNA is the name of one such SNP. Men who share large numbers of SNPs in common are related to one another, however distantly, and can be grouped into what are called "haplogroups" and into subsets of haplogroups called "subclades". That's where the "R" in your "R-M269" prediction comes in. That's your major Y-DNA haplogroup: R. R-M269 actually belongs to a very large subclade of R known as "R1b". That's why "R-M269" is better and more specifically represented as "R1b-M269".

                    Think of Y-DNA haplogroups and subclades as a form of genealogical pedigree like a family tree, with each SNP name like the name of an ancestor (which it is really). Here is the brief pedigree of R1b-M269, starting from R. The first three ancestors will be represented by the combination of the haplogroup name and the name of the SNP. The rest, because it's simpler, will simply be represented by SNP names.

                    R-M207>R1-M173>R1b-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269

                    Think of that "R-M207" as the fourth great grandfather of your "R-M269" prediction. You can see that you are "R1b", because at M343 your line became part of that subclade of R (after becoming R1 at M173).

                    Great. The only problem with that is that you are a modern man, and M269 is a very old SNP. There aren't any modern men whose Y chromosomes are stuck at M269. Nope, you have a whole rack of Y-DNA SNPs descended from M269. You just don't know about them yet, because you have not had SNP testing, like FTDNA's Big Y-700 test or one of their SNP pack tests.

                    By far most American males who are R1b-M269 belong to one of two major subclades downstream of (descended from) M269. They are R1b-P312 and R1b-U106. There are other subclades, but they are smaller, and I am trying to keep this brief.

                    So, where does R1b-L51, the subject of this thread, come in? It comes in as one of the SNPs in your pedigree, if you belong to either R1b-P312 or R1b-U106, like this:

                    R-M207>R1-M173>R1b-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312 or, if you are R1b-U106,

                    R-M207>R1-M173>R1b-M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>U106.


                    I underlined L51, so you can see where it is. I have used it in this thread to represent itself and any and all SNPs old enough to have been present in Corded Ware and in Yamnaya before that.

                    Confused yet?

                    Anyway, both P312 and U106 are also very old. Big Y-700 testing will reveal for you a lot of SNPs downstream of either of those, as well, but my purpose was to show you where L51 fits into the pedigrees of most modern males who have a prediction of "R-M269" from FTDNA.

                    What does all this mean to you? Well, if you are interested in your ancestry, it means that most of us central or western European R1b guys are descended in our Y-DNA line from men of the Corded Ware culture and from men of the Yamnaya culture before that.
                    Last edited by Stevo; 9 March 2021, 07:33 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Thank you for that post, Stevo! It's nicely explained and informative for those who haven't delved into Y-DNA testing further. I hope it will spur some to do at least an SNP pack, if not the Big Y. Joining a Y-DNA or surname project would help those interested, as the project administrators could give advice (for consideration). Since "DNA Day" is coming in April, we can hope for some sales in the near future.

                      I appreciate all your posts in this topic, even though our connection via R-L51 is ancient. My paternal line is on the R-P312 branch, starting at R-M269:
                      R-M269 > R-L23 > R-L51 > R-P310 > R-P312 > R-Z290 > R-L21 > R-DF13 > R-ZZ10_1 > R-Z253 > R-S844 > R-A22 > R-S856 > R-L1308 > R-FGC46379

                      I underlined R-P310 to show the point after which our paths divide. I had used one SNP test, then a SNP pack, to get to R-Z253 (which narrowed it down to R-L1308), before doing Big Y-700 testing to get to the current terminal subclade of R-FGC46379.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                        Wish I could get a close look at the table that appears about 46:50 into the Reich video (in the first post above), the one that charts the cousin relationships between Yamnaya individuals and Corded Ware individuals.

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                        • #13
                          Yamnaya +Polish GAC = Corded Ware?

                          Also highlighted like Polish GAC is Maykop, and that Russian Caucasus Yamnaya is closest to Polish/German/Czech CW. I guess another option would be Maykop mixed with a Yamnaya group like Russian Caucasus Yamnaya and traveled West.

                          Also of note is Polish Corded Ware is most similar to Yamnaya (more yellow than other CW groups).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KATM View Post
                            Thank you for that post, Stevo! It's nicely explained and informative for those who haven't delved into Y-DNA testing further. I hope it will spur some to do at least an SNP pack, if not the Big Y. Joining a Y-DNA or surname project would help those interested, as the project administrators could give advice (for consideration). Since "DNA Day" is coming in April, we can hope for some sales in the near future.

                            I appreciate all your posts in this topic, even though our connection via R-L51 is ancient. My paternal line is on the R-P312 branch, starting at R-M269:
                            R-M269 > R-L23 > R-L51 > R-P310 > R-P312 > R-Z290 > R-L21 > R-DF13 > R-ZZ10_1 > R-Z253 > R-S844 > R-A22 > R-S856 > R-L1308 > R-FGC46379

                            I underlined R-P310 to show the point after which our paths divide. I had used one SNP test, then a SNP pack, to get to R-Z253 (which narrowed it down to R-L1308), before doing Big Y-700 testing to get to the current terminal subclade of R-FGC46379.
                            My maternal grandfather belonged to a Z253 line, although not the same after Z253 as yours.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
                              Yamnaya +Polish GAC = Corded Ware?

                              Also highlighted like Polish GAC is Maykop, and that Russian Caucasus Yamnaya is closest to Polish/German/Czech CW. I guess another option would be Maykop mixed with a Yamnaya group like Russian Caucasus Yamnaya and traveled West.

                              Also of note is Polish Corded Ware is most similar to Yamnaya (more yellow than other CW groups).
                              From what Reich said, and from what I think the archaeology also indicates, the CW combo is Yamnaya + GAC.

                              Polish CWC makes sense, because the oldest known CWC-X horizon burials (thus far, anyway) are in SE Poland.
                              Last edited by Stevo; 9 March 2021, 07:16 PM.

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