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  • R-Z295

    Any info on this subclade?

    Age, geography, frequency, or just a tree to start with, would be great.
    I went from M269 -probably DF27 based on Y67- to Z295 with the new M243 pack.
    I got from internet search that it is ~2500 years old with no better location than 'Western European'.

  • #2
    If you were to get a BigY and YFull analysis you would possibly be placed into a subclade that is less than 1700 years old along with other people from a more specific region. SNP packs aren't going to include all of the SNPs that can place you there.

    Here is the YFull page for Z295 which shows it's estimated age and other subclades below it from BigY and 1,000 Genomes tests. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z295/
    Last edited by Armando; 29th September 2015, 05:41 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Armando View Post
      If you were to get a BigY and YFull analysis you would possibly be placed into a subclade that is less than 1700 years old along with other people from a more specific region. SNP packs aren't going to include all of the SNPs that can place you there.

      Here is the YFull page for Z295 which shows it's estimated age and other subclades below it from BigY and 1,000 Genomes tests. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z295/
      Thanks Armando. It's older than I thought at ~3700y Before Present. It's Bronze age.

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      • #4
        R-Z295 ACTIVE RESEARCHER

        HI, I AM GONNA BE LOOKING FOR R-Z295 ORIGINS AS WELL ,BUT I GOT GOOD NEWS BECAUSE I FOUND QUITE A FEW MEMBERS ON THE FRENCH GROUP THAT BELONG TO R-Z295.
        EMAIL EMAIL
        GOOD LUCK AND FEEL FREE TO REPLY JOHNRIVERS820@GMAIL.COM

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        • #5
          Originally posted by 305016 View Post
          HI, I AM GONNA BE LOOKING FOR R-Z295 ORIGINS AS WELL ,BUT I GOT GOOD NEWS BECAUSE I FOUND QUITE A FEW MEMBERS ON THE FRENCH GROUP THAT BELONG TO R-Z295.
          EMAIL EMAIL
          GOOD LUCK AND FEEL FREE TO REPLY JOHNRIVERS820@GMAIL.COM
          I recall the admins of the df27 group said that z295 acted like a geographical sorter between Spanish (Basque) and non 'Spanish' locations, the later being positive for z295.
          "Non Spanish" is a bit vague though and it is likely that some z295+ people made it to the Basque country even if most of them went elsewhere.
          Given the age of z295 at almost 4000 years bp, the birth cradle of this subclade must be still very close of the DF27 father-clade birth location, somewhere in Central Europe, South Germany or maybe Gaul/Belgium.

          Yes there are quite a few French customers that tested positive for z295 but If you know that you are z295, you must also know a few subclades below, like z209. In this case it is interesting to test for these subclades with the existing snp packs.

          I did the z209 pack and ended up in a cul de sac at cts4065. We can speculatethat there are some unknown more or less french-specific snp below cts4065. So I went ahead with a big Y. Hopefully it will give the French cts4065+ people some new snps to test.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Ric View Post
            I recall the admins of the df27 group said that z295 acted like a geographical sorter between Spanish (Basque) and non 'Spanish' locations, the later being positive for z295.
            "Non Spanish" is a bit vague though and it is likely that some z295+ people made it to the Basque country even if most of them went elsewhere.
            Given the age of z295 at almost 4000 years bp, the birth cradle of this subclade must be still very close of the DF27 father-clade birth location, somewhere in Central Europe, South Germany or maybe Gaul/Belgium.
            Of course some Z295 was in Spain. Simply take a look at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php...631&star=false and that's even with Spain and Latin American having a much smaller percentage of participants than people with British Isles ancestry. If it weren't for 1000 Genomes kits there would hardly be any representation of Iberians and Latin Americans. If there were equal participation by Iberians and Latin Americans as there is by people of ancestry from the British Isles there would be a very large number of them in the BigTree by Alex Williamson and interpretation of what is and isn't found in Iberia would be more accurate.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Armando View Post
              Of course some Z295 was in Spain. Simply take a look at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php...631&star=false and that's even with Spain and Latin American having a much smaller percentage of participants than people with British Isles ancestry. If it weren't for 1000 Genomes kits there would hardly be any representation of Iberians and Latin Americans. If there were equal participation by Iberians and Latin Americans as there is by people of ancestry from the British Isles there would be a very large number of them in the BigTree by Alex Williamson and interpretation of what is and isn't found in Iberia would be more accurate.
              OK, thanks for correcting.

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              • #8
                Hello,

                my father's haplogroup, after a Y-DNA test and a SNP Pack is set to R-Z295. Our paternal line is from Northern Spain. Wasn't there an additional SNP pack to sort below R-Z295? I'm not able to find it now, or I'm I imagining it?

                Thanks!
                Cristina

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by cnegueruela View Post
                  Hello,

                  my father's haplogroup, after a Y-DNA test and a SNP Pack is set to R-Z295. Our paternal line is from Northern Spain. Wasn't there an additional SNP pack to sort below R-Z295? I'm not able to find it now, or I'm I imagining it?

                  Thanks!
                  Cristina
                  The R1b-Z209 SNP Pack is what he needs although BigY would be better.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Armando View Post
                    The R1b-Z209 SNP Pack is what he needs although BigY would be better.
                    Thank you very much, Armando. This is was looking for. However since you're suggesting BigY I'm going to look at it into detail before deciding. I admit I'm not that familiar with what the outcomes of the BigY test are... Are all SNPs tested then?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by cnegueruela View Post
                      Thank you very much, Armando. This is was looking for. However since you're suggesting BigY I'm going to look at it into detail before deciding. I admit I'm not that familiar with what the outcomes of the BigY test are... Are all SNPs tested then?
                      Almost all SNPs are tested with BigY. SNP Packs just test some of the known SNPs downstream from Z209. I think the best way to explain the BigY is with examples of results of kits with BigY testing. The BigTree and YFull are sites that analyze BigY test results. Two Z295 people that had a BigY test and a 1000 Genomes anonymous sample, kit HG01521, are in the BigTree at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1930 and in the YFull tree at https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7203/ Even though the Z209 SNP Pack tests all the way down to PF7203 it doesn't test all of the equivalent SNPs and some equivalent SNPs are so new they don't even have names yet which is why the BigTree just shows their positions. The new SNPs without names are novel SNPs and those aren't included in any SNP pack yet and the only reason we know about them is because of the BigY testing. There are more SNPs that each person has which are private SNPs and will never get a name. The only way novel and private SNPs are tested is with BigY. The novel and private SNPs are used by YFull to provide a TMRCA and those two people in the links have a TMRCA of 2100 years before present. Once more people get tested with BigY and someone share more SNPs with one of them then some of the private SNPs will become novel SNPs and get names and the TMCRA will be younger.

                      The downside of BigY is that it is possible that your father doesn't match anyone at BigTree or YFull and he is negative for all downstream SNPs from Z295 like the two people at https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z295*/ and http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=631 but at least almost all possible SNPs would have been tested and not just the SNPs included in the SNP pack.

                      If your father has had a Y67 or Y111 test and has a close STR match at 67 or Y111 and both the your father and the match get a BigY test and they both get a YFull analysis then they should get a fairly young TMRCA.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Armando View Post
                        The downside of BigY is that it is possible that your father doesn't match anyone at BigTree or YFull and he is negative for all downstream SNPs from Z295 like the two people at https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z295*/ and http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=631 but at least almost all possible SNPs would have been tested and not just the SNPs included in the SNP pack.

                        If your father has had a Y67 or Y111 test and has a close STR match at 67 or Y111 and both the your father and the match get a BigY test and they both get a YFull analysis then they should get a fairly young TMRCA.
                        As one of those two Z295* people on the Big Tree, I have to urge anyone with an apparent terminal SNP of Z295 to pursue BigY testing and share their results if possible. I believe we have a lot of hidden structure to find below Z295 and more data will help with that. My paternal line goes back to France and does not seem particularly rare, just low on people that have tested.

                        Good luck!

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                        • #13
                          Thank you very much for the detailed reply, Armando, it has helped me understand the potential of the test. I've decided to go for the Big Y test for my father instead of completing with SNP packs. I've just ordered it and I'm looking forward to the results. I'll let you know how it goes.

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