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  • surnames

    Dano's wife here again, given that we don't know what Dano's surname should be, what can we take from the results of his Y111 test to determine his paternal line. There are three surnames the same throughout his matches and these also have the highest amount of matching DNA. Do we take it that this is what his surname should be, or is there some other way of determining his paternal line?

  • #2
    Autosomal results along with the Y-DNA results might help in suggesting a surname possibility.

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    • #3
      There is only one autosomal match with the same name who is 3rd-distant cousin on MyHeritage, very few people in his tree so its difficult to try to distinguish where the relationship may be. Also unable to tell the area he comes from so again difficult to place his ancestors.

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      • #4
        A lot depends on how close those Y-111 matches are. I recommend upgrading to the Big Y-700. That could really help. It might not deliver the answer immediately, but it could set the stage for the answer that you might never see otherwise.

        Anyway, how close are his matches at 111 markers? Are you able to say what the surnames are?

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        • #5
          The SURNAMES, that you are CLOSELY matched up to in Marker 111, HAVE you gone and LOOKED them up in "Surname Projects", to see if their MARKERS are the same as yours? - - Also look at the "Genetic Distance", if you're around 4, 5, you are probably FAMILY.
          Last edited by htb; 29 March 2021, 08:19 AM.

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          • #6
            Dano does not have any matches at Y111, but at Y67 he has one match with a gd of 2 and one Y67 with a gd of 4, there is also a Y37 with a gd of 1, all three have the same surname. The match at Y67 gd 2, sent me his STR's so that we could see which differed, as did the match at Y37, who also sent me his family tree which I have scoured for connections without any success. Dano also has a 1st cousin 1xremoved on autosomal for whom the cm's are 248, the predicted time to MRCA with this match is 2.9 generations, so when I looked at the family tree for this match there were the same people in other trees of autosomal matches to Dano who are 3rd cousins, however the surname is different to the YDNA matches. On further investigation of the 1st cousins tree, I found that a female at the 2.9 generation mark had married a man who does have the same surname as the three YDNA matches, although none of them are related. This is the reason for my question, is it co-incidental that the female married a man with the same name as the YDNA matches or am I on the right trail. What are the opinions?

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            • #7
              The surname does not appear in any of the projects unfortunately, that was one of the first things I looked for.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dano View Post
                Dano does not have any matches at Y111, but at Y67 he has one match with a gd of 2 and one Y67 with a gd of 4, there is also a Y37 with a gd of 1, all three have the same surname. The match at Y67 gd 2, sent me his STR's so that we could see which differed, as did the match at Y37, who also sent me his family tree which I have scoured for connections without any success.
                That's definitely something, but it would be nice if those three matches would all upgrade to 111 markers, and it would be even better if Dano and his matches all did the Big Y-700. If those matches stay close to Dano and each other at 111 markers, that would be an indicator that the surname in question is probably the right one.

                If Dano and his matches did the Big Y-700 and stayed close in terms of terminal SNP and STRs, that would seal the deal.

                Originally posted by Dano View Post
                Dano also has a 1st cousin 1xremoved on autosomal for whom the cm's are 248, the predicted time to MRCA with this match is 2.9 generations, so when I looked at the family tree for this match there were the same people in other trees of autosomal matches to Dano who are 3rd cousins, however the surname is different to the YDNA matches. On further investigation of the 1st cousins tree, I found that a female at the 2.9 generation mark had married a man who does have the same surname as the three YDNA matches, although none of them are related. This is the reason for my question, is it co-incidental that the female married a man with the same name as the YDNA matches or am I on the right trail. What are the opinions?
                Sounds like more than coincidence, but a lot depends on how common that surname is.

                Here is a chart put out by FTDNA a few years ago that will give you an idea about the significance of Y-DNA genetic distance. I am also posting a chart from David Vance that shows genetic distance at 111 markers and the likely range of generations to the most recent common ancestor. Hope these two charts are helpful.

                STR matches and relatedness_genetic distance_dna.jpg



                Y-DNA_111 y dna str marker_genetic distance and range of generations_David Vance.jpg
                Last edited by Stevo; 29 March 2021, 09:28 AM.

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                • #9
                  Thank you for these charts, I will print them and have a closer look. I don't think there is much possibility of any of the YDNA matches upgrading to Big Y 700,or even to Y111. To be honest I am grateful that they have responded with the information they have already provided. The Y67 gd2 match is also requesting military records of his relatives in an effort to 'place' relatives at the relevant time. The frustrating thing is trying to find information from the war years, the last record of people is the 1939 census of England and Wales, after that are Electoral rolls in 1945, however where we come from, Liverpool in UK, was flattened by bombing during the war years, and there are few records of where people went once their homes that they had lived in for many years were bombed. I have done a great deal of research on the 1st cousin 1xremoved and his ancestors, to find children of the MCRA and their spouses and offspring, that is how I found the female whose husband has the surname of the YDNA matches. I am now trying to find other cousins who may match but with not much success. I know it's a waiting game sometimes, but Dano is 77 and I am 74, so I want to get on and discover the truth.

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                  • #10
                    Sorry to blab so much on your thread, but I wanted to mention a few important things: 1) that 65/67 match is pretty close, but 2) STRs can be quirky, and 3) SNPs are better (if you test enough of them).

                    #3 is why the Big Y-700 is essential, if you really want to know the answer.

                    With regard to numbers 1 and 2 above, my youngest son is a 65/67 match for me. Yes, it's true, and he is also a father/son match for me on Family Finder: 3,384 cMs, with a longest block of 267 cMs. His two sons also match me on Family Finder as grandfather/grandson. Y-DNA STR mutations happen. My eldest son is an exact Y-DNA STR match for me. Go figure.

                    Yet, at the same time, I have a fifth cousin (we share the same 5th great grandfather, born c. 1750) who matches me 110/111 and 757/758 overall (we know that thanks to the Big Y-700). Yeah, that's an STR match of ~99.9%, and our most recent common ancestor lived seven generations ago!

                    That's what I meant by "quirky".

                    That fifth cousin also matches me on Family Finder 31 cMs, with a longest block of 16 cMs. Pretty amazing.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dano View Post
                      Thank you for these charts, I will print them and have a closer look. I don't think there is much possibility of any of the YDNA matches upgrading to Big Y 700,or even to Y111. To be honest I am grateful that they have responded with the information they have already provided. The Y67 gd2 match is also requesting military records of his relatives in an effort to 'place' relatives at the relevant time. The frustrating thing is trying to find information from the war years, the last record of people is the 1939 census of England and Wales, after that are Electoral rolls in 1945, however where we come from, Liverpool in UK, was flattened by bombing during the war years, and there are few records of where people went once their homes that they had lived in for many years were bombed. I have done a great deal of research on the 1st cousin 1xremoved and his ancestors, to find children of the MCRA and their spouses and offspring, that is how I found the female whose husband has the surname of the YDNA matches. I am now trying to find other cousins who may match but with not much success. I know it's a waiting game sometimes, but Dano is 77 and I am 74, so I want to get on and discover the truth.
                      Have you considered offering to pay for the upgrade for that 65/67 match, at least to 111 markers?

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                      • #12
                        The 65/67 match has suggested that his cousin should take the y111, and we said we would have paid for that test, however I think there was some family opposition to that so it never went any further. I think that is why he is obtaining the military records to see if any of the family can be placed in the right area at the relevant time, and if that is the case then maybe someone will test. However, due to the pandemic everything is slowed down and we have to wait approximately 3 months for the records - frustrating to say the least.

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                        • #13
                          I am surprised to see the STR differences between your son and yourself, it makes me wonder now about the 1st cousin 1xremoved match, and whether I'm looking in the wrong place there. It can be quite confusing.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dano View Post
                            I am surprised to see the STR differences between your son and yourself, it makes me wonder now about the 1st cousin 1xremoved match, and whether I'm looking in the wrong place there. It can be quite confusing.
                            I was surprised by it, too, but I was told by Bennett Greenspan of FTDNA that it's really not all that unusual. I mentioned it to show you just how close a match 65/67 can be.

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                            • #15
                              The other thing that bothers me about the 1st cousin 1xremoved, is that I find shared matches who also match the maternal side of Dano's family. I know from reading on here and other sites that this can happen, but it is quite disconcerting and makes me doubt the connection. I feel as though I have missed something in the connection of Dano's family to the family the cousin comes from, although I have matched up all his great and grand aunt's and uncle's to their respective husbands and wives and none of them have married into that family and nor have their children. I'm hopeful I can get to the bottom of it before too long.

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