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  • DYS570 + DYS576

    I am in need of some help with understanding these two YSTR 's. I have a match at Y67 with gd2 who has very kindly supplied me with this information to try to help my search. The two mutations are DYS570 and DYS576, and the difference in both is just one number. From the papers I have read which are available on FTDNA, these are both fast mutating STR's and as I understand it, studies have shown that they can mutate between father and son. Not knowing who my father is, what I need to know is whether this could indicate that my match may be my half cousin or even my half brother. I would be grateful for any input on this as I feel I am quite close, but don't know enough to clarify things to myself.

    I did put this query on my post about YSTR's but thought it probably should have an entry of it's own.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dano View Post
    I am in need of some help with understanding these two YSTR 's. I have a match at Y67 with gd2 who has very kindly supplied me with this information to try to help my search. The two mutations are DYS570 and DYS576, and the difference in both is just one number. From the papers I have read which are available on FTDNA, these are both fast mutating STR's and as I understand it, studies have shown that they can mutate between father and son. Not knowing who my father is, what I need to know is whether this could indicate that my match may be my half cousin or even my half brother. I would be grateful for any input on this as I feel I am quite close, but don't know enough to clarify things to myself.

    I did put this query on my post about YSTR's but thought it probably should have an entry of it's own.

    I started my quest to confirm who my birth parents back in 2009 and just in the past year or so, I confirmed this. I started with the same process as you, testing 67 markers then upgrading to 111 markers. I was fortunate; because the "Wells" project had already created a data base designating different paternal lines, mine is W013. I was fortunate again when I got a close family dna match to a guy who was also raised by a non-biological father, we match 778cMs and we have confirmed that my birth father was his paternal great-grandfather, so he is my great nephew. We match 109/111, and we both did the Big Y700 test, and we confirmed new snps, which are markers in our paternal line.

    Best regards, Douglas W. Fisher(Wells)
    Kit#122883

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    • #3
      I have tested to Y111 and my match tested to Y67, so there is possibly more to check as I know nothing of my paternal origins. His family tree however, is well established and can be traced and verified back past the 1500's. I don't understand much about YSTR's, but have been reading a few of the reports on here and others available on-line, most seem to note that these two YSTR's can change between father and son. They also say there is a mutation rate greater than 1, if I understand it correctly the difference that my match and I have would be an acceptable mutation. I am just not sure I am understanding it correctly.

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      • #4
        The Y STR tests, as well as the Y SNP tests, are not suitable for determining the exact number of elapsed generations since the common ancestor. Rather, they will give you a wide range of possibilities. If you have any reason to suspect that your Y DNA matches might actually be related to you at the level of about 4th cousins or closer, autosomal DNA tests such as Family Finder are the way to go.

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        • #5
          I was under the impression that Family Finder was a more general thing and more likely to find maternal matches, I have uploaded my Ancestry results to FTDNA but don't recognise any matches. My results actually on Ancestry show my niece and grandniece, and I have grouped all of the matches to them. I have a couple of matches of around 149 cms over a number of segments who don't match them, however when I do a tree search for the name of my YDNA match, there are no such names in their trees. I also do not recognise any of the names of those matches, nor anyone in their trees, so I am a bit in the dark on this.

          The highest match I have that I haven't grouped with my nieces is 149cms over 8 segments, and the next is 126cms over 5 segments.
          Last edited by Dano; 9 August 2020, 07:10 AM.

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          • #6
            Family Finder, Ancestry and also other companies which do the autosomal test is for both genders and there is no more ponderance of results of either sex.

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            • #7
              Ah right, I have been thinking YDNA for male relatives, autosomal for family mainly maternal relatives. So because I am looking for relations on my fathers side, and obviously don't know what name I'm looking for other than my YDNA match, anyone who doesn't match in the groups to my nieces could potentially be my father's relations. Am I understanding that right now? The matches I quoted in my earlier post could be paternal then, a female at 149cms and a male at 126 who definitely don't match on the maternal side.

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              • #8
                Dano, regarding the autosomal aspects you mentioned:

                An autosomal test will find relatives for both your known maternal and unknown paternal sides, from 4-6 generations back, and sometimes a generation or two more. Your challenge is to determine which are paternal. The best way is to identify the maternal relatives among your matches, to help eliminate some (as you have realized). Having a known maternal relative who will do a DNA test will help.

                Since you already have two good sized matches, you should use the Shared cM Project Tool at DNA Painter to find out which relationships are most likely for them. For 149 cM shared, that tool shows the following possible relationships:
                • 54% Half 2C 2C1R Half 1C2R 1C3R
                • 23% Half GG-Aunt / Uncle 2C Half 1C1R1C2R Half GG-Niece / Nephew
                • 17% Half 1C3R † 3C Half 2C1R 2C2R
                • 6% Half 2C2R † Half 3C 3C1R 2C3R
                • 0.74% 4C † Half 3C1R † 3C2R
                • ~ 0%** 1C1R
                ** this set of relationships is just within the threshold for 149cM, but has a zero probability in thednageek's table of probabilities
                † this relationship has a positive probability for 149cM in thednageek's table of probabilities, but falls outside the bounds of the recorded cM range (99th percentile)
                If you examine the tree, ethnicities, and shared matches for these two matches (149 and 126 cM) and cannot see a relationship to your maternal side, it's possible they are related on your paternal side. It would be best to contact these matches for more details, but be discreet, because of your unknown father. You don't know how they might react.

                From what you have written, it seems that your sibling is a maternal half sibling, and has not tested (either won't or is not available to test). If so, then those matches which you share with his or her descendants (your niece and grandniece, actually half-niece, half-grandniece) will be related to your shared maternal ancestors.What you want to do is to find matches that you can identify as having a common ancestor in your maternal line, and assign them to the corresponding group. Since your half-sibling's daughter and granddaughter tested, they will be helpful to a point. But, it's best to find a maternal aunt, uncle, grandparent, cousin of some degree, etc. who will do a DNA test, if you have such relatives. They will share more maternal DNA with matches than your niece and grandniece.

                And please note: just because neither the 149 cM or 126 cM matches match your (half) niece and grandniece does NOT necessarily mean that they are definitely paternal; your niece and grandniece only inherited a portion of your half-sibling's maternal DNA. Your half-sibling inherited 50% of his or her DNA from your mutual mother; his daughter (your niece) then inherited about 25% of that, and passed down half of that (12.5%) to her child (your grandniece). You can see that the niece and grandniece would thus miss matching some maternal matches. Since siblings usually inherit different segments in the 50% they receive from a parent, you will have some maternal matches that your half-niece and half-grandniece do not.

                BTW, as Y-DNA is for your direct paternal line (left), mtDNA is for the direct maternal line (right).



                Autosomal DNA will match any ancestor from your paternal or maternal sides (all, including in-between; aunts, uncles, grand-aunts/uncles; their cousins and their siblings, etc., and not just the direct Y or mtDNA lines): bg_fftree.png
                Attached Files
                Last edited by KATM; 9 August 2020, 12:47 PM.

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                • #9
                  I really appreciate this information, and help. I have unfortunately, no aunts or uncles remaining on my mother's side who could test, being in the last half of my seventies myself. To group the maternal matches I have looked for shared matches of my half niece and half g/niece and used the dot system on Ancestry. I have included shared matches of their shared matches in the group, I'm not sure if this is the Leeds method, but it seemed sensible to do this as they must have some dna from the maternal side to match. The match I have at 149cms has shared matches which again I have grouped using the dot system, and the match with 126cms is among these, however none of this group match my nieces, nor do any of the shared matches cross over into the maternal group. This is leading me to think this could be paternal, but I am going to do as you suggest and try to investigate the family trees to see if I can locate some 'recognised' maternal family names amongst them.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dano View Post
                    I was under the impression that Family Finder was a more general thing and more likely to find maternal matches
                    If your Y-DNA match also has autosomal results with the same company you do the estimated relationship will be more helpful than anything you would get from the estimated number of generation from your Y-DNA genetic distance.

                    If your match doesn't have autosomal results you might offer to pay for it while the tests is on sale.

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                    • #11
                      My YDNA match hasn't done autosomal testing, just the Y67, but that's a good idea. He has been extremely helpful in lots of ways, including providing the STR numbers which differ, although I don't know how he would take to the idea of doing autosomal. I feel I know him to a certain extent through our emails and shared info, but I'm not sure about asking him to do that and I would certainly offer to pay if I did make the request. I will think about that though, thanks.

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                      • #12
                        Have you started building a tree containing your assumed paternal matches? Do those matches have trees to get you started? On the bright side, at around 140 cms...it's possible you share a Great or 2nd Great Grandparent with them. But, there's a LOT of filling in to do. Use the "Thru Lines" function of Ancestry. It can be helpful.

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                        • #13
                          The problem I see at the moment is that I don't have any autosomal match with the same surname as my YDNA match. The match of 149cms has a fairly decent tree, but I can't see any names that would match in the tree of my YDNA match, his surname goes back many generations. I will have a look at Ancestry and the Thru Lines to see if I can uncover anything, but I feel like I'm at a brick wall with a blindfold on.

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                          • #14
                            At the stage of search you are in, IMHO, you are putting too many eggs in the YDNA test basket. You have to use your autosomal data as well. (I think that was alluded to farther up the thread multiple times)

                            Each of our searches brings different challenges and obstacles. I won't say that my process, which relied heavily on autosomal will work in your case....nor would I say YDNA is a golden bullet.(of itself)

                            I was led to my paternal line with a 188cm match. I had NO autosomal matches across 4 testing sites with my bio surname.
                            Last edited by RHTC; 13 August 2020, 09:37 AM.

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                            • #15
                              You are probably right, my thinking is that because of the YDNA surname, that's what my surname should be so I have been looking for those matches. Today I have been looking at my Ancestry matches as suggested to see what I can find. I have quite a few matches with a lower count around 11cms, who all have a common surname in their tree, married to a person with a name that matches my 149cm match. All of these matches are in the USA, to where their common ancestor born in 1772, emigrated, I am now looking to see if there is any connection between this name and my match.

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