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no exact matches with the family assumed to be ours past 5th gen

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  • no exact matches with the family assumed to be ours past 5th gen

    I'm posting under an account created for my father, whose kit is #75953. We've been researching our paternal line for years now, and research has solidly linked it to one particular branch of Austins. The problem is, when we get back to my 3rd great-grandfather, the results of his descendants (including us) start to differ from the rest of the well-documented family. The only other kit that matches my dad's with a 0 genetic distance at 25 markers is another descendant of my 3rd great-grandfather, so at least we know everything is clear back to him. More than that, this one cousin is the only kit with the Austin surname that we match at all.

    We have lots of 0 distance matches with different surnames at the 12 marker, but no 0 distance at 25 markers, though we do have many at a distance of 1 with 25 markers, and even more at 2. We've recently upgraded my dad's kit to 111 markers, but haven't gotten the results yet. Did we waste our money? Will this even tell us anything about who my 4th ggrandfather actually was, since there are no matches with a 0 genetic distance even at 25 markers, besides this one cousin? If it comes back and simply matches that one guy, it won't be very useful, and will money wasted. What will the 111 marker test be able to tell us?

    Angela Austin
    Last edited by angelaka; 10 February 2020, 02:23 PM.

  • #2
    I don't know enough about YDNA to know how important or exact the GD really is, and was looking for some insight on that.
    Last edited by angelaka; 10 February 2020, 02:23 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by angelaka View Post
      I'm posting under an account created for my father, whose kit is #75953. We've been researching our paternal line for years now, and research has solidly linked it to one particular branch of Austins. The problem is, when we get back to my 3rd great-grandfather, the results of his descendants (including us) start to differ from the rest of the well-documented family. The only other kit that matches my dad's with a 0 genetic distance at 25 markers is another descendant of my 3rd great-grandfather, so at least we know everything is clear back to him. More than that, this one cousin is the only kit with the Austin surname that we match at all.

      We have lots of 0 distance matches with different surnames at the 12 marker, but no 0 distance at 25 markers, though we do have many at a distance of 1 with 25 markers, and even more at 2. We've recently upgraded my dad's kit to 111 markers, but haven't gotten the results yet. Did we waste our money? Will this even tell us anything about who my 4th ggrandfather actually was, since there are no matches with a 0 genetic distance even at 25 markers, besides this one cousin? If it comes back and simply matches that one guy, it won't be very useful, and will money wasted. What will the 111 marker test be able to tell us?

      Angela Austin
      I would suggest an upgrade to 67 or 111 markers. My great nephew Edward matches me, 109/111, my birth father was Edward's paternal great-grandfather, so 3 generations between us. Both Edward & myself also tested the Big Y 700 and we know our paternal snps up to my birth father, 1902-1978.

      You have to know your genealogy as well. If your birth father could have a close paternal relative, like grandson or great nephew also test 67 or 111 markers, then maybe the Big Y 700 afterwards.

      Best regards, Douglas W. Fisher(Wells
      Kit#122883

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      • #4
        Well, like I said, my father's dna is an exact match with another descendant of my 4th ggrandfather, so wouldn't that point to the paternity being solid until the generation before that? However, at that point it diverges quite a bit, so that our family organization doesn't even match us with descendants of my supposed 5th ggrandfather. I'm not sure if there was an adoption or an infidelity during that generation. I don't see much point in convincing my closer paternal relatives to take the test, since we already show an exact match with a much more distant cousin that that. Am I incorrect in thinking the match with our (5th? 4th?) cousin clarifies that our descent is accurate back to to 4th gen? (I said 3rd ggrandfather above, but it's actually my 4th and my father's 3rd.)

        We've already upgraded to the 111 marker test, but haven't gotten the results of that yet. I'm really hoping this will tell us something useful, but since we have no 0 degree matches at the 25th marker, I'm not sure it will tell us much.

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        • #5
          Does anyone know, in light of what I've said about the lack of exact matches so far, whether the 111 marker test will be useful? There's so much I don't understand yet about these results and the genetic distances.

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          • #6
            I don't think upgrading to a higher level (67 or 111) will be a waste of money, even if you do only still have the one Austin match. You have to keep in mind that DNA testing for genealogy, whether for autosomal, Y-DNA or mtDNA, is a long game. It may take quite a long time until a relevant match shows up for any of those tests, but particularly for Y-DNA or mtDNA.

            There is an Austin-Austen surname project at FTDNA. Perhaps you should consider joining your father's kit to it. The administrators may be of some help.

            One additional note: it's advisable to NOT advertise your FTDNA kit number, since it is part of the kit log-in, along with the password. See https://forums.familytreedna.com/hel...es_v1/security .

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            • #7
              Yes, we're already a part of that project. That's how I know we're not matching up to the others in the line that's supposed to be ours. I've been talking with the administrator, but there's not a lot he can tell me, since we don't show any matches back past my 4th ggrandfather.

              Thanks for the warning about not broadcasting the kit number. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'm able to edit that post now, since it's been replied to.

              Thank you both for your replies and your advice.

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              • #8
                Just saw your most recent posts. 0 distance matches are great, but at the 25 marker level it won't mean a lot, unless that person continues to match your father at higher levels (the genetic distance may change if he does match at higher levels). Most advice that I've read says to test at 37 markers for a minimum, even 67 nowadays. So your 111 will ultimately help.

                It's always advisable to do research before ordering any DNA test. Project administrators can advise you on what tests would be beneficial, especially if you get into testing Y-SNPs (12, 25, 37, 67 and 111 are STR tests).

                If your father has done a Family Finder test, does the person your father matches who is another descendant of the 4th g-grandfather, also match him in Family Finder? If your father has not done a Family Finder test, you might consider it. FF is on sale now for $59 + shipping.
                Last edited by KATM; 10 February 2020, 03:36 PM.

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                • #9
                  We haven't gotten the results of the Family Finder test back yet either, but our exact match lists his descendancy through the brother of my dad's 2nd ggrandfather. The administrator of the Austin/Austen dna project did advise me to upgrade to the 67 or 111 marker, though this was before he realized we didn't match any descendants back farther than my dad's 3rd ggrandfather. He recently advised me not to do the BigY test just yet, and wait for the results on the recent upgrade.

                  I've been researching this line for over 15 years, and have talked with numerous researchers on the family, but the results of the test don't match up with what we expected.

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                  • #10
                    If your research shows your father as a descendant of his Austin 3rd great grandfather, and he has an exact (0 distance) match with a man whose ancestor was the brother of your father's Austin 2nd great grandfather, then depending upon what generation the match is, their relationship should be something around 3rd cousin once removed, or 4th cousin. There is a chance that they may not share autosomal DNA (Family Finder). See https://isogg.org/wiki/Cousin_statistics . If the relationship is closer than 4th cousin, they have a better chance of sharing autosomal DNA.

                    When the Family Finder results come in for your father, you can use Advanced Matching to see if they do match in Family Finder as well as Y-DNA. See https://learn.familytreedna.com/user...matching-page/ for directions. Or, you can search for him by his name in your father's Family Finder match list.

                    Your father, and his Austin match descended from the brother of your father's 2nd g-grandfather, have the 3rd g-grandfather as a common ancestor (along with the 3rd g-grandfather's wife, if she was mother to the two brothers). If I understand what you've written correctly, the Austin-Austen project admin knows the Austin line farther back from your father's 3rd great grandfather, and is saying your father doesn't match other men in the project who are known to descend from those earlier Austins, correct? So your father's match wouldn't match them either, it would seem. I'm just trying to make sure I've got it right.

                    I wonder in what way your father doesn't match the branch you'd thought he was in. Is it a question of being in a different sub-group or branch within the Austin-Austen project than those who are known to descend from the earlier Austin ancestors, or completely not matching any Austins? If it turns out that there was some break in the Austin line, and your father's 3rd g-grandfather was not an Austin, then you will have some more research to do, unfortunately. If your father gets matches at the higher levels once his Y-111 results are in, you may get clues from their surnames. If any of your father's paternal relatives have done the Family Finder test, you should make a tree at FTDNA, connect the known paternal relatives to it, and that will filter his paternal matches into a group shown in a separate tab on his FF matches page. This is called the Family Matching System, explained in the FTDNA Learning Center. Then, if you see other previously unknown paternal matches with a surname of a Y-DNA match other than Austin, that may lead you to some conclusions. If no such relatives have tested (can transfer from other companies if tested elsewhere - Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage), see if you can persuade some to test.

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                    • #11
                      I wouldn't focus on exact matches only, my father and his paternal 1st cousin are (their fathers brothers)
                      GD of 1 at 12markers, 1 marker mutation (my Father has no exact matches on this level besides his own brother)
                      GD of 1 at 25 markers
                      GD of 4 at 37 markers, 2 marker mutations, one being a 2 step mutation
                      GD of 4 at 67 markers
                      my Father is tested to yDNA111, his cousin to yDNA67

                      My father and his brother are
                      GD of 0 at 12 markers
                      GD of 0 at 25 markers
                      GD of 1 at 37 markers

                      My Uncle and his 1st cousin above are a GD of 3 at 37 markers.

                      My Great Grandfather to my Grandfather and or My Grandfather to my Father has had multiple recent STR mutations.
                      Cousin's values are more in line with other surname matches. He has more matches and GD's of 0 to surname on lower levels, while my father has GD's of 1 or greater to same matches

                      Our shared line (my Father/Uncle and their cousin) also share a unique marker value to all other surname matches. Matches common ancestor is prior to my 2x Great Grandfather.

                      Mutations happen at anytime, one can have
                      Higher then average mutation rates, make connection seem further back in time then it is
                      Average mutations rates
                      Lower then average mutation rates, make connection seem closer then it really is
                      Last edited by prairielad; 10 February 2020, 07:17 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KATM View Post
                        Your father, and his Austin match descended from the brother of your father's 2nd g-grandfather, have the 3rd g-grandfather as a common ancestor (along with the 3rd g-grandfather's wife, if she was mother to the two brothers).
                        They are from 2 different wives, but yes, we match the 3rd ggrandfather, so I'm confident of the line back as far as him.

                        If I understand what you've written correctly, the Austin-Austen project admin knows the Austin line farther back from your father's 3rd great grandfather, and is saying your father doesn't match other men in the project who are known to descend from those earlier Austins, correct? So your father's match wouldn't match them either, it would seem. I'm just trying to make sure I've got it right.
                        Correct. My father and this other cousin are an exact match, but don't match descendants in the Austin project back any farther than their common ancestor. In other words, the man from whom they descend doesn't seem to share a common paternal line as his supposed siblings.

                        I wonder in what way your father doesn't match the branch you'd thought he was in. Is it a question of being in a different sub-group or branch within the Austin-Austen project than those who are known to descend from the earlier Austin ancestors, or completely not matching any Austins?
                        They don't match any of the Austin lines that have been tested. They don't match the line of the man who was supposed to have been their 4th g-grandfather, or any of the others either.

                        If it turns out that there was some break in the Austin line, and your father's 3rd g-grandfather was not an Austin, then you will have some more research to do, unfortunately. If your father gets matches at the higher levels once his Y-111 results are in, you may get clues from their surnames. If any of your father's paternal relatives have done the Family Finder test, you should make a tree at FTDNA, connect the known paternal relatives to it, and that will filter his paternal matches into a group shown in a separate tab on his FF matches page. This is called the Family Matching System, explained in the FTDNA Learning Center. Then, if you see other previously unknown paternal matches with a surname of a Y-DNA match other than Austin, that may lead you to some conclusions. If no such relatives have tested (can transfer from other companies if tested elsewhere - Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage), see if you can persuade some to test.
                        Okay. None of them have tested so far besides my dad and this distant cousin we match up to.
                        Last edited by angelaka; 10 February 2020, 10:35 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by prairielad View Post
                          I wouldn't focus on exact matches only, my father and his paternal 1st cousin are (their fathers brothers)
                          GD of 1 at 12markers, 1 marker mutation (my Father has no exact matches on this level besides his own brother)
                          GD of 1 at 25 markers
                          GD of 4 at 37 markers, 2 marker mutations, one being a 2 step mutation
                          GD of 4 at 67 markers
                          my Father is tested to yDNA111, his cousin to yDNA67

                          My father and his brother are
                          GD of 0 at 12 markers
                          GD of 0 at 25 markers
                          GD of 1 at 37 markers

                          My Uncle and his 1st cousin above are a GD of 3 at 37 markers.
                          Really interesting. Thank you for this info.

                          Mutations happen at anytime, one can have
                          Higher then average mutation rates, make connection seem further back in time then it is
                          Average mutations rates
                          Lower then average mutation rates, make connection seem closer then it really is
                          So this makes me wonder if maybe my dad and the distant cousin actually were descended from the people they're on record as having descended from, but the genes have mutated differently in the branches. As far as I can see, our dna sequence has only 3 numbers different than theirs, but they aren't showing up on my matches list. I'm thinking I'm misunderstanding something big here. Probably genetic distance is very different than the actual numbers in the dna sequence (?)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by angelaka View Post

                            ......

                            So this makes me wonder if maybe my dad and the distant cousin actually were descended from the people they're on record as having descended from, but the genes have mutated differently in the branches. As far as I can see, our dna sequence has only 3 numbers different than theirs, but they aren't showing up on my matches list. I'm thinking I'm misunderstanding something big here. Probably genetic distance is very different than the actual numbers in the dna sequence (?)
                            Each level of matching only allows for a set number of differences
                            12 marker - exact matching only, exception - you are shown GD of 1 if you and match are members of same the FTDNA haplogroup or surname project
                            25 marker - up to a GD of 2
                            37 Marker - up to a GD of 4
                            67 marker - up to a GD of 7
                            111 marker - up to a GD of 10

                            Note if for a certain marker you are say 10 and the other person for same marker is 12, that is equal to 2 GD, not just 1 GD. It is looked at as two separate mutations. A mutation from 10 to 11, and then another from 11 to 12 (or 12 to 11, and then 11 to 10)
                            Last edited by prairielad; 11 February 2020, 01:18 AM.

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                            • #15
                              One thing I would recommend, due to the recent mutations I found in my fathers yDNA STRs, is that if you are looking to connect with others that share a distant patriline ancestor, is to test 2 or 3 other known lines that share closer common ancestor (oldest person available to test for this separate but common line)
                              ie) If tested father, test his paternal Uncles or cousins if possible.
                              If his father had 2 other brothers test someone from each of their lines.

                              testing more then one person allows you to "date" recent mutations, which can be "over looked" to a degree.

                              For example, my Fathers results are not that useful, but since his cousin is tested who does not have these mutations, his cousins results give more useful results as well as more matches on each level.

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