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dys449 is only marker that I do not match my 3rd cousin 1x removed.

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  • dys449 is only marker that I do not match my 3rd cousin 1x removed.

    My 3rd cousin 1x removed did 67 marker ydna testing and he matches 66 of my markers perfectly, but he has a value of 26 at dys449 & I have a 29. This is being listed as a 64/67 ydna match? My paternal 2nd great-grandfather was his paternal 3rd great-grandfather. We match 7 dna segments, longest segment 19cMs with total of 45cMs autosomal dna which is in the range of 3rd cousins 1x removed. I know that dys 449 is one of the fastest mutating markers, so most likely the mutation from 29 to 26 occurred during the 4 generations between our common ancestor and my cousin's birth, timeframe 1846-1955. I guess this mutation difference on dys449 could be considered a fingerprint for my cousin's paternal line branch?

    Best regards, Doug

  • #2
    It also could be a fingerprint for your branch. One branch went "up" 1 or 2 notches, while the other one went "down" 1 or 2 notches until you hit the +/-3 difference between each other.You won't know the answer to that until/unless other branches of the tree are found and likewise test. (or somebody spends a not-so-small fortune on forensic DNA collection)

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    • #3
      You could be correct about that. My great nephew has also tested 67 markers and his results should be available in about a month. My paternal birth father was his paternal great-grandfather. So, he should match the same 66 markers with me as my 3rd cousin 1x removed does, and also he might match me at 29 at dys449? My great nephew matches me 778cMs. He is actually my great nephew on my paternal side, but 1st cousin 1x removed on my maternal side. The story about my birth parents is sad & complicated.

      Best regards, Doug

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      • #4
        Another significant variable in comparison of myself & my paternal 3rd cousin 1x removed; is that he has a value of "24" at dys413(b); and I was the only man out of 10 men in the W013 "Wells" subgroup (who did 67 or more markers of testing); that had a "24", eight others have a "23" and one has a "25." So, I think the fact that we both have this same value at dys413(b) is significant. In regard to the dys449 marker, everyone in the W013 "Wells" subgroup has a 29 at dys449 except my 3rd cousin 1x removed, who has a 26. In about a month my great nephew's 67 marker results will be in, and we will see what value he has at dys449; but I suspect he will have a 29.

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        • #5
          Great news today. My Great nephew's ydna test results came in, and we match 66/67, only STR marker that is different is dys390 where he has a 25 and I have a 24. Edward does have a 24 at dys413(b) and he has a 29 at dys449. My birth father was Edward's paternal great-grandfather. So, Edward's dys390=25 is a distinct fingerprint in his paternal branch, and John's dys449=26 is a distinct fingerprint in his paternal branch. I think that if someone matches someone on 66 out of 67 ydna markers they should be a 66/67 regardless if there is one, two, three differences in the number; because there can be a mutation that jumps more than one number at a time. The three of us share an ancestor who lived 1813-1865, and Edward & myself share an ancestor who lived 1902-1978.

          Best regards, Douglas W. Fisher
          Kit#122883

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          • #6
            My great nephew Edward's 111 marker results came in, and we match 109/111, and dys710 is the second snp that we mismatch, Edward has a 35 & I have a 34. The tip estimates common ancestor 0-4 generations at 66%. My birth father was Edward's paternal great-grandfather, so (3) generations back for Edward. I read in a forum that dys710, dys712 & CDY are the three fastest strs between 68-111. Edward's Big Y 700 results are pending. I may upgrade my Big Y next month?

            Best regards, Douglas W. Fisher
            Kit#122883

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            • #7
              CDY is a Y37 STR, it's a polymorphic marker(people can have differing numbers of repeats; most people have only 2, but others like me have 3, some have even more) and it tends to be a fast moving marker because of that trait.

              Most markers are not polymorphic, and have only 1 set of markers to track, rather the 2, 3 or more.
              Last edited by bartarl260; 24th March 2019, 05:30 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by bartarl260 View Post
                CDY is a Y37 STR, it's a polymorphic marker(people can have differing numbers of repeats; most people have only 2, but others like me have 3, some have even more) and it tends to be a fast moving marker because of that trait.

                Most markers are not polymorphic, and have only 1 set of markers to track, rather the 2, 3 or more.

                Edward & myself do not mismatch at the CDY marker, I read a post in a forum where that was mentioned along with dys710 & dys712 as the fastest mutating markers in the 111 markers; but this is irrelevant to my situation. I probably should have mentioned it, as it takes away from my main points in the post.

                Edward(great nephew) & myself only mismatch at dys390 & dys710, 109/111.

                Best regards, Doug

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                • #9
                  Ok, difference in phrasing. When I think of a "Y111 Marker" I'm thinking panels 68 through 111. Which wouldn't include CDY.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bartarl260 View Post
                    Ok, difference in phrasing. When I think of a "Y111 Marker" I'm thinking panels 68 through 111. Which wouldn't include CDY.
                    I understand, that was my mistake to phrase it wrong. My main focus of this post, is the 109/111 ydna match to my great nephew. We were both raised by non-biological fathers, and I started my dna testing 2009, and Edward just started his at 23andMe a year or so ago, where we matched 778cMs on 23 segments, and he also tested at FTDNA and we match about the same here. We communicated and shared birth father info, and realized that my birth father is his paternal great-grandfather, and the 111 marker results have verified this, and I am sure the Big Y results will also verify this.

                    Best regards, Doug

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                    • #11
                      Clarification: I started this thread, because my paternal 3rd cousin 1x removed(John Wells), whose 3rd great-grandfather Andrew A. Wells, 1813-1865 was my paternal 2nd great-grandfather, and we match 66 out of 67 markers exact, but dys449 I have a 29 & John has a 26, so we are listed as 64/67 match. There are 5 generations between John & Andrew so the mutation of 3 from 29 to 26 could have happened once, twice or three times.

                      In contrast my great nephew(Edward), whose paternal great-grandfather Felder L. Wells, 1902-1978 was my birth father, matches me 66/67 & 109/111, and our mismatches are at dys390 & dys710. There are 3 generations between Edward & Felder.

                      I copied & pasted this from a blog I follow:

                      "How Often Do Mutations Happen?
                      A very common question about STR mutations is “how often do mutations happen?”

                      A mutation can happen any time. I have seen 2 mutations between a confirmed father and son, and I have seen 8 generations elapse with no mutations. So, in essence, mutations happen whenever they darned well feel like it. In reality, the time between mutations varies widely, but we can calculate the average and utilize that number.

                      The TIP calculator estimates number of generations at various confidence levels between any 2 matching men. However, please keep in mind that the TIP calculator has to use statistical averages, which is equivalent to “one size fits all.” In truth, one size doesn’t fit anyone particularly well, and some people not at all, but it’s the best we can do."


                      The tip indicator estimates 66% probability that Edward shares a common ancestor with myself in 0-4 generations, so not too bad of a prediction.



                      Best regards, Douglas W. Fisher(adopted name)
                      Confirmed paternal surname "Wells"
                      Confirmed maternal grandmother Marietta Moreman, 1915-1949
                      Confirmed paternal grandmother, Hattie Waldron, b.abt 1887


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                      • #12
                        I decided to order the Big Y upgrade. I think this is a smart decision; because my great nephew is waiting on his Big Y 700 results. I only had one unamed variant left from my Big Y 500 testing, so hopefully I will not have too many more unamed variants?

                        Best regards, Doug

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                        • #13
                          It can get weirder. By Y37, I'm GD2 with my father on STRs, all mutations on polymorphic markers so not shocking. No further mutations are found up through Y111. BigY 500 STR results found an additional mutation out of 430 common STR markers.I also differ with him on 3 SNPs as well. Of course, I have a Y500 result and he's Y700 so it isn't a total apples to apples comparison. Currently I'm more inclined to spend $180 on getting another family member Y37 + atDNA tested (by ftDNA) rather than upgrade my own kit. Such as my father's one remaining 1st cousin, his half-brother, or one of my own brothers.

                          I also have 8 unnamed SNPs, while my father has 35 of them at present so Y700 does make a difference, but I expect that his count will drop as closer matches retest or test Y700 as their individual cases may be.

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                          • #14
                            I decided to upgrade my Big Y 500 to 700; because my great nephew Edward will have his Big Y 700 results in May, and I will have mine in June. Edward is my closest paternal blood relative(known), so I think this will be worthwhile. Thanks to my 8th cousin, Richard Wells, Phd who spent 40 years tracing our paternal line back to our ancestor 11th century Knight, who fought at the Battle of Hastings 1066, our paternal line is quite stable. My 108/111 match is to a David Wells(Berkshire, England) and we are actually 13th cousins; because Richard, myself & David collaborated and confirmed that our common ancestor was John Wells, b.c. 1492 Little Haywood, Staffordshire, England; our paternal lines branched off too two different sons of John Wells. David tested positive for R-S7019 but negative for R-BY17958, so we know that our ancestor John Wells, 1492 carried S7019, and we know that BY17958 mutated between 1538-1672. Richard & my paternal lines split off with two different sons of Henry Wells, b.1672 Berkshire, England d. 1714 Bucks Co. PA. I still have one unnamed variant from my Big Y 500 testing, so I am thinking that Edward will match that variant. I was reading the white paper for Big Y 700 testing, so I guess there is a possibility we will discover more new snps and get more clarity about our paternal line?

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                            • #15
                              Yes, there is a good chance you get more unnamed variants with Big Y700. In one cluster I follow, there are 13 Big Y500 tested kits. Their unnamed variants range from 0 to 5. There are 2 Big Y700 tested kits. They have 15 and 20 unnamed variants. All 15 have the same haplogroup, with some belonging to a subclade of it. So we will have more variants we can tie to more ancestors.

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