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  • Germanica
    replied
    It still sounds like your situation is different from Paul's. In Paul's case, both Y-DNA and autosomal DNA support Cagle. In your case, only autosomal DNA supports Bryan and Claiborne. It is not the same.

    Leave a comment:


  • MoberlyDrake
    replied
    I didn't make myself very clear and I left out Morgan's last name, which was "Bryan". I have more than enough Y-DNA matches to prove that Enoch Hampton was really a Hampton and that my mother's grandfather really wasn't a Mobley (his surname) but a Hampton. About 8 years ago, through atDNA testing of a descendant of one of the two brothers I thought was the most likely candidate for the father of Mom's grandfather (who was raised in an orphanage), I proved it was one of the two brothers anyway.

    But it's the really close DNA matches Mom has recently amassed at Ancestry, together with the fact that most of them are on the shared matches lists of each of the others, that allows me to say which of the two brothers actually was the father. In fact, it's rather odd how few matches Mom has who are descended from the other brother, and although two of the matches she has who are descended from the other brother share significant amounts of DNA with her, they share little or no DNA with the many matches descended from the brother who was the father.

    I'm wondering if this is an isolated phenomenon or if I can apply it to more distant ancestors? Is a person more likely to match descendants of an actual ancestor than to match siblings or cousins of that ancestor?

    Going back to the Hampton case. Although finding my mother's true great-grandfather was a wonderful breakthrough, I quickly ran into a brick wall. I found this Hampton's parents without trouble and found out that they were married in Clark Co. KY in 1831. There were quite a few possible Hampton fathers there, but going through wills, deeds, bastardy suits, etc. has never revealed which one of them (if any) was the father of Mom's 2nd great-grandfather. Even worse, although about 7 different Hampton men migrated from Rowan Co., NC to Clark Co., KY between about 1790 and 1810, no one has a clue as to how any one of them was related to any other! But they probably were all related somehow and all descendants of a Scot who arrived in NJ in 1683.

    Now here are Mom's DNA results at Ancestry and 23andMe:

    Shared DNA segments with descendants of David Hampton m. Sarah Wilson:

    Match A - 35 cM across 2 DNA segments
    Match B - 31 cM across 1 DNA segment
    Match C - 29 cM across 1 DNA segment
    Match D - 27 cM across 1 DNA segment
    Match E - 27 cM across 2 DNA segment
    Match F - 26 cM across 2 DNA segments
    Match G - 16 cM across 2 DNA segments

    Shared DNA segments with descendants of Obediah Hampton:

    Match H - 39 cM across 2 DNA segments
    Match I - 30 cM across 3 DNA segments

    Plus she has a couple of very distant matches to descendants of Jonathan Hampton.

    Now, can I assert with any degree of confidence that Mom is a direct descendant of this particular David Hampton who migrated from Rowan, NC, or can I just say she may be descended from him or from one of his brothers or or one of his cousins, uncles, etc. (whoever they may have been)??? Essentially, can DNA prove anything at all beyond the generations that are closest to you?

    And are Obediah and David Likely to be closely related to each other.

    It's terrible that Ancestry doesn't give us a chromosome browser. I can't get anyone to answer my messages much less upload to Gedmatch. And I had to create trees myself for at least half of the matches above. That's time-consuming!!! And there are a lot more matches shared with the above people whom I can't even start a tree for, because they don't provide any clue that will give me a start.
    Last edited by MoberlyDrake; 14 April 2018, 12:19 AM.

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  • Germanica
    replied
    Originally posted by MoberlyDrake View Post
    21 matches in itself is interesting but may not mean much. My mother has more than that at who claim descent from Morgan and Martha Strode, who married around 1720 in PA, but I am not at all ready to say they are her ancestors. She has about that many descended from William Claiborne too. I could just put the two statistics together and say that the unknown parents of Mom's 2nd great-grandfather, Enoch Hampton, had to be Oliver Hampton and Elizabeth Bryan. But I have no proof of that and Mom doesn't match any descendants of Oliver Hampton and Elizabeth Bryan.
    But we are not basing this on autosomal DNA matches alone. There is also the Y-DNA matches with the Cagle surname, particularly the exact match, as well as the fact that Cagle was the uncle by marriage and there was a family story about an uncle being the father... granted, family stories should be taken with a grain of salt, but when both Y-DNA and autosomal DNA supports it, it all starts to add up. Sorry, but I don't think it's the same as simply having some autosomal DNA matches who have the same ancestor in their tree that you don't.

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  • MoberlyDrake
    replied
    21 matches in itself is interesting but may not mean much. My mother has more than that at who claim descent from Morgan and Martha Strode, who married around 1720 in PA, but I am not at all ready to say they are her ancestors. She has about that many descended from William Claiborne too. I could just put the two statistics together and say that the unknown parents of Mom's 2nd great-grandfather, Enoch Hampton, had to be Oliver Hampton and Elizabeth Bryan. But I have no proof of that and Mom doesn't match any descendants of Oliver Hampton and Elizabeth Bryan.

    The question is how much DNA do you share with all these Cagles? Are they very close matches? Do they share significant amounts of DNA with you? When you look at the shared matches tab for each of them are most of the others in the list of shared matches? Can you get a number of them to upload to Gedmatch to see if you triangulate?

    Leave a comment:


  • paul_roe
    replied
    Originally posted by Germanica View Post
    It's looking more and more likely Cagle was the father then. It does make sense, given the story you were told about the uncle - it just sounds like someone thought it was Charles' mother's uncle instead of Charles' uncle by marriage.



    That's interesting, but 1 autosomal match doesn't support the idea that DuRard was the father of Charles so I think we can rule that out. Have you contacted both the Y DuRard match and the autosomal DuRard match? Could they be the same person, or closely related to one another? Maybe a different Cagle (or the same Cagle?) caused a NPE on their DuRard line - that would mean their DuRard line "should be" (biologically) Cagle, and therefore the DuRard name has nothing to do with you.
    Yes I sent an email to Mr. DuRard yesterday. I haven't received a response from him yet. I'm fairly confident that Cagle is correct since Charles has a son named after his Aunts husband. Same given name and Cagle as middle name. This makes me believe that whatever occurred between Charles mother Uncle Cagle was mutual.

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  • Germanica
    replied
    Originally posted by paul_roe View Post
    I have 21 matches in my AncestryDNA kit who have Cagle in their family tree, only 3 of them are directly descended from sister Rowe. So, I see what you're saying. Thank you very much for pointing that out.
    It's looking more and more likely Cagle was the father then. It does make sense, given the story you were told about the uncle - it just sounds like someone thought it was Charles' mother's uncle instead of Charles' uncle by marriage.

    I have 1 match at Ancestry with several generations of Durards in their family tree. They did live in the same area as the DuRard match in my Y-DNA kit. I'm not sure what to make of that.
    That's interesting, but 1 autosomal match doesn't support the idea that DuRard was the father of Charles so I think we can rule that out. Have you contacted both the Y DuRard match and the autosomal DuRard match? Could they be the same person, or closely related to one another? Maybe a different Cagle (or the same Cagle?) caused a NPE on their DuRard line - that would mean their DuRard line "should be" (biologically) Cagle, and therefore the DuRard name has nothing to do with you.

    Leave a comment:


  • paul_roe
    replied
    Originally posted by MoberlyDrake View Post
    Carefully study all the Cagles who are not descended from sister Rowe!!! Are they close matches to you? Do all or most of them have ancestors in common? Are they related to the Cagles who ARE descended from Rowe?
    3 of my 21 Cagle matches are descended from sister Rowe. Every Cagle I've looked at so far seems to be descended from Leonhart Kegel who imigrated to Pennsylvania from Rhenish Palatine, Germany around 1732. He and his family traveled south and settled in North Carolina. They spread mostly south and west from there.

    Leave a comment:


  • MoberlyDrake
    replied
    Carefully study all the Cagles who are not descended from sister Rowe!!! Are they close matches to you? Do all or most of them have ancestors in common? Are they related to the Cagles who ARE descended from Rowe?

    Leave a comment:


  • paul_roe
    replied
    Originally posted by Germanica View Post
    So they are ALL descended from the children Cagle and Rowe's sister had together? Because Uncle Cagle, if he was not the father, was not related by DNA to Charles, so the only Cagles you should be DNA related to are those descended from the said children. If you're finding autosomal matches with Cagle descendants who are NOT descended from these children, that is very strong evidence that Uncle Cagle was the father of Charles.

    Also, have you tried searching your autosomal DNA matches for DuRard?
    I have 21 matches in my AncestryDNA kit who have Cagle in their family tree, only 3 of them are directly descended from sister Rowe. So, I see what you're saying. Thank you very much for pointing that out. I have 1 match at Ancestry with several generations of Durards in their family tree. They did live in the same area as the DuRard match in my Y-DNA kit. I'm not sure what to make of that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fern
    replied
    Originally posted by paul_roe View Post
    I have quite a few connections with folks who have Cagles in their family tree. The problem is they would be related to me anyway through the Rowe sister.
    Paul - do you mean you have dna matches with people who have Cagles in their family tree? You won't have these because they're "related through the Rowe sister", which is just a Cagle connection by marriage.

    Ooops, delayed posting this and now realise Germanica has made the same point!
    Last edited by Fern; 7 April 2018, 04:31 PM.

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  • Germanica
    replied
    Originally posted by paul_roe View Post
    John, thanks for the suggestion! I have done autosomal testing with Ancestry. I have quite a few connections with folks who have Cagles in their family tree. The problem is they would be related to me anyway through the Rowe sister.
    So they are ALL descended from the children Cagle and Rowe's sister had together? Because Uncle Cagle, if he was not the father, was not related by DNA to Charles, so the only Cagles you should be DNA related to are those descended from the said children. If you're finding autosomal matches with Cagle descendants who are NOT descended from these children, that is very strong evidence that Uncle Cagle was the father of Charles.

    Also, have you tried searching your autosomal DNA matches for DuRard?

    Leave a comment:


  • paul_roe
    replied
    Originally posted by John McCoy View Post
    You should also upload your original autosomal raw data from AncestryDNA to the free GEDmatch web site. GEDmatch has (autosomal) kits uploaded from all of the major vendors, so you may find other matches. Also, the tools available on GEDmatch are extremely helpful. Among other things, you can compare kits in all combinations and thus identify "triangulate" individual segments.
    Thanks again John. My Ancestry kit has been on GEDmatch for a little over a year. I'm very new at trying to use DNA for genealogy and determining the significance of the test results has been difficult for me. I have a hard time understanding the tools at GEDmatch and have very little time to study it. 10-12 hour a day job keeps me occupied. I am learning a little at a time.

    Leave a comment:


  • paul_roe
    replied
    Originally posted by spruithean View Post
    I understand what you mean with the premise of what your surname should be, however the Roe surname is very much part of your tree and very much your family's name.

    However I would keep an eye on those Cagle matches and perhaps get some FamilyFinder tests and perhaps research the various other surnames in your match list snd see if families of those names lived in the area around the time of your great-great grandmother's life. There couks very well be something to these Cagles!

    All the best.
    Thank you very much for your input. I am indeed very proud of my Roe/Rowe heritage. They have been the centerpiece of my research for 30 years.

    If my male line does descend from the Cagles I am sure that I will find plenty to be proud of with my Cagle heritage as well, regardless of the circumstances of my great-grandfathers birth.

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  • John McCoy
    replied
    You should also upload your original autosomal raw data from AncestryDNA to the free GEDmatch web site. GEDmatch has (autosomal) kits uploaded from all of the major vendors, so you may find other matches. Also, the tools available on GEDmatch are extremely helpful. Among other things, you can compare kits in all combinations and thus identify "triangulate" individual segments.

    Leave a comment:


  • paul_roe
    replied
    Originally posted by John McCoy View Post
    If the proposed relationship between the 0 distance Cagle and yourself is closer than third cousin, a Family Finder test on both parties (or, even better, on any surviving relatives of the previous generations) should be informative. Also, such a test could well turn up other autosomal matches that would add another layer of evidence.
    John, thanks for the suggestion! I have done autosomal testing with Ancestry. I have quite a few connections with folks who have Cagles in their family tree. The problem is they would be related to me anyway through the Rowe sister.

    I have imported my Ancestry Kit into FTDNA. Some of my YDNA matches have FF by their name which is supposed to indicate that they have had the Family Finder test done, but I am having trouble locating their results.

    Leave a comment:

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