Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Y-DNA matches with a genetic distance of 6 and 7. How certain can I be?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    John McCoy makes a good point...the test enabled you to rule out the other 155,000 men who have taken the 67-marker test here at FTDNA. this is progress. As more men do Y testing each month you will eventually find a closer match. about 2,000 men each month are doing the 67 marker testing.

    it it is also possible that the 111 marker test confirms these close 6GD matches.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Ivar Kristensen View Post
      I don't get why they have to share the same surname (or a variant). Doesn't surnames change completely in many cases?
      My understanding is that the patronymic naming system was used in most Scandinavian countries until the 19th century and thus they did not have true hereditary surnames until then. However, I think surnames in most other western European countries (at least in the British Isles) having generally stayed consistent except for spelling variations since they were adopted, generally around 1100-1500 AD and most male genetic descendants have the same or similar surname as their ancestors in the genealogical time frame (which FTDNA defines as 15 generations, which is about since 1550). Convergent mutations can cause STR markers of unrelated ancestral men to move closer together over time and thus make it appear that their descendants are related. Because most men who are genealogically related do in fact have the same or similar surname (at least in non-patronymic countries), an apparent "match" between men who have different surnames is suspect as being the result of convergent mutations absent some additional evidence suggesting an NPE or other reason for them to have different names.
      Last edited by TwiddlingThumbs; 24th October 2017, 06:45 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ivar Kristensen View Post
        But shouldn't I be "closer" to, or have distant matches with other norwegians or scandinavians in the same haplogroup? Is it wrong to suppose that the genetic distance to them should be shorter than to people from the British Isles?
        You will rarely if ever match with someone in a different haplogroup, but you are still only going to "match" with a small percentage of men in your haplogroup. I think the problem is probably lack of scandinavian test results. I think if more scandinavians in your haplogroup were tested, you would find some better matches.

        Comment


        • #19
          I would nevertheless expect to be closer to/match better with the other scandinavians in my haplogroup.

          I actually match two swedes at 25 markers. One of them tested 37 markers. The other one 67. I also match a dane at 25 markers, and he tested 67.

          I'm not sure that european, non-scandinavian surnames are as fixed as you claim. But I'm no expert on the subject.
          Last edited by Ivar Kristensen; 24th October 2017, 08:50 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            was tired when I posted my latest reply. Ignore it.

            I think we should end the discussion here.

            Thank you all for your contributions!
            Last edited by Ivar Kristensen; 25th October 2017, 11:19 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Concerning the stability of surnames once adopted at some point back in medieval times, don't count on it!

              If you have the opportunity to study feudal tax records (known as "terriers", in many countries, and having nothing at all to do with dogs!), testaments, donations, grants, etc., you will find that there was a significant period, at least until the 16th Century in some areas, where surnames, even though in wide use, were not reliably passed on from one generation to the next. I have at least one ancestral family from French-speaking Switzerland where this happened. The surname went through the following contortions in succeeding generations between about 1450 and 1600: Reymond alias de Geneve, de Geneve alias Billiard, Billiard alias Favre, and finally, just plain Favre. There may be more! All but the last surname from given names or from maternal surnames. Favre likely came from the occupation of the guy's father-in-law. Other examples can be found, such as the use of a place name to denote a family that lived there, and, when that family died out, the next tenant was eventually given the same surname! So popular were temporary surnames, that some families ended up with three alternative surnames at the same time. We get the impression that, in a very small village, most of the families ended up with the same paternal surname, and the locals found it useful to use family nicknames in order to distinguish them from each other, and some of those nicknames stuck and eventually supplanted the original surname entirely.

              Bottom line here, there are enough exceptions to the "rule" of paternal inheritance of surnames throughout history, that it is not wise to assume that it applies to your ancestral families, until you have followed the paper trail that far back.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Ivar Kristensen View Post
                I'm not sure that european, non-scandinavian surnames are as fixed as you claim. But I'm no expert on the subject.
                They aren't as fixed. That note is probably there as a way to make sure people don't easily discard those potential real matches that just happened to look a little distant at a lower testing level. Or perhaps it is based on old practices back when higher STR tests were not available so people that to make due with Y12, Y25, and Y37. Therefore outdated advise.

                One of the uncles I had tested at Y37 had 250+ matches. None with his surname and most from various countries not related to where my uncle's Y line comes from. For some time I just put that kit aside as it seemed he simply didn't have meaningful matches that I could work with.

                Later I decided to look at that still growing match list again. I focused on matches that has surnames or origins in the countries associated with my uncle's Y line. This narrowed down the 250+ list to a handful. A few of which shared surnames with each other but not with my uncle. So perhaps my uncle's line is an NPE to one of those lineages.

                Additional results including a Big Y from one of those matches showed promising results. Their lineages may connect possibly a few centuries ago. A little before our current brick walls. So not a huge break through but it showed that it wasn't just some coincidence and I should follow further.

                Comment


                • #23
                  @Ivar Kristensen

                  There are four issues at play here.

                  Originally posted by Ivar Kristensen View Post
                  [----] I'm not sure that European, non-Scandinavian surnames are as fixed as you claim. But I'm no expert on the subject.
                  Originally posted by John McCoy View Post
                  Concerning the stability of surnames once adopted at some point back in medieval times, don't count on it!

                  If you have the opportunity to study feudal tax records (known as "terriers", in many countries, and having nothing at all to do with dogs!), testaments, donations, grants, etc., you will find that there was a significant period, at least until the 16th Century in some areas, where surnames, even though in wide use, were not reliably passed on from one generation to the next. I have at least one ancestral family from French-speaking Switzerland where this happened. The surname went through the following contortions in succeeding generations between about 1450 and 1600: Reymond alias de Geneve, de Geneve alias Billiard, Billiard alias Favre, and finally, just plain Favre. There may be more! All but the last surname from given names or from maternal surnames. Favre likely came from the occupation of the guy's father-in-law. Other examples can be found, such as the use of a place name to denote a family that lived there, and, when that family died out, the next tenant was eventually given the same surname! So popular were temporary surnames, that some families ended up with three alternative surnames at the same time. We get the impression that, in a very small village, most of the families ended up with the same paternal surname, and the locals found it useful to use family nicknames in order to distinguish them from each other, and some of those nicknames stuck and eventually supplanted the original surname entirely.

                  Bottom line here, there are enough exceptions to the "rule" of paternal inheritance of surnames throughout history, that it is not wise to assume that it applies to your ancestral families, until you have followed the paper trail that far back.

                  1. Fixed family names. Yes, at certain point in time, in some European countries the family names became quite stable around the same time as general introduction of written baptismal, birth or tax records. No causation either way is implied here. All it means is that a family was only using a single surname. Was it always written the same way? For many (most?) surnames it was unlikely that there would be no written form variants. An example found in Wikipedia for Sir Walter Raleigh  1552-1618 gives the following eleven (11) written form variants used during his life Raleigh, Raliegh, Ralegh, Raghley, Rawley, Rawly, Rawlie, Rawleigh, Raulighe, Raughlie, or Rayly.


                  2. NPE. Although a non-paternity event is only one of many possible reasons for a discontinuity in family names, such a possibility cannot be excluded. Please remember that it could have happened many centuries ago!


                  3. STR matching might be giving false results due to evolutionary convergence (or just convergence), please take a look at https://isogg.org/wiki/Convergence . In such a case, yours and your matches MRCA could have lived thousands and not hundreds years ago.


                  4. John McCoy's research showed that even in the presence of established family names some families kept changing their family name. Here is my list that I have compiled some time ago based on my experience and that of other genealogical researchers.

                  Some of the ways a family name/surname would become not continuous in the male line

                  A. A voluntary name change due to religious or personal reasons (e.g. not wanting to be associated with one's own family, starting a new life). Nowadays, an artist may want to start a new career using his or her mother maiden family name, and the process was similar in the past centuries. In the absence of the baptismal/birth certificate that might look like an NPE.


                  B. Family alias becoming the family name (some very good examples can be found in the forum, for example in John McCoy's research).


                  C. Taking wife's family name upon marriage. That was rare, but not incidental, and is well documented to happen. It is known to me to occur quite frequently in at least England, Germany, Poland and pre-revolutionary America. This about a custom predating the 19th century bureaucracy with its strict rules. Then it became again legally possible in the 20th century, albeit at different times in various countries. In the 19th and 20th century, when changing the family name of a male upon a marriage was not possible, there are known cases of men legally changing their surname to that of their intended future wife, while still bachelors.

                  An easy to understand example: a man marrying the only daughter of an established innkeeper.


                  D. In Spain rules were different, so if a family branch spent some time there and moved back, the wrong family name could have been applied to them. For example, I can imagine someone familiar with Cruz Bustamante, who upon seeing Penélope Cruz Sánchez, entered as first name Penélope, used Cruz as her middle name, and then entered family name: Sánchez...


                  E. Migration.
                  • Migration to the US...
                  • Language changes. For example, many Scots migrated at the beginning of the 16th century to continental Europe. Their names were adjusted to conform to the rules of the local language, or translated into the local language or sometimes simply changed.
                  • A family name at first being written in an alphabet derived from Latin, then in a non-Latin alphabet, and then again in the original alphabet. In the example of a Polish singer Anna German, her father family name was Hörmann. She was born in the Soviet Union (nowadays Uzbekistan) and his and her family name was being written using the Cyrillic script as Герман. Upon transliteration back into the Latin based Polish alphabet that became German. Let me add that her paternal grandfather spelled his family name as Hermann. And these were adventures of people who had very good education.



                  F. Entering military service under an assumed name was happening through centuries for a variety of reasons. Even today, one enters the French Foreign Legion under a new name.


                  G. Posthumous child receiving family name of his mother new husband. I have never fully researched that angle, but it appears to me that the prevailing rule tended to be that a child born within 6 months (180 days) from the date of the marriage was automatically considered a legal child. Taking into account that a widow on a farm often married after 30 days, that could be a fairly common NPE scenario.


                  H. People changing names to escape prosecution, for example peasants, servants, slaves or deserters running away.


                  I. There were jurisdictions and times with the following rule in place. Even when the father was known and acknowledged, but he had married mother of his son or daughter after his or her birth, that child had to have mother's surname. (When details are not known, that might look like a non-paternity event/NPE.) A modern variation: an unwed mother might be able to enter into her child birth certificate name of the deceased father (DNA testing and a court approval might be required), but assigning the deceased father family name as the child family name might not be straightforward, if at all possible.


                  J. Uncorrected clerical error (and that is a very broad category).


                  and more...


                  Mr. W

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dna View Post
                    3. STR matching might be giving false results due to evolutionary convergence (or just convergence), please take a look at https://isogg.org/wiki/Convergence . In such a case, yours and your matches MRCA could have lived thousands and not hundreds years ago.
                    Why am I only converging with people from the British Isles? Is just that I-M223>I-M284-Isles/Sc is so rare elsewhere? It "occurs almost exclusively in Britain and Ireland" according to this site https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...I2_Y-DNA.shtml But how accurate is it?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      From https://isogg.org/wiki/Convergence

                      "Convergence is more likely to be a problem with low-resolution 12-marker and 25-marker matches, but does also occur with 37-marker matches. It is less likely to occur at 67 markers ..."
                      Last edited by Ivar Kristensen; 26th October 2017, 04:27 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ivar Kristensen View Post
                        Why am I only converging with people from the British Isles? Is just that I-M223>I-M284-Isles/Sc is so rare elsewhere? It "occurs almost exclusively in Britain and Ireland" according to this site https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...I2_Y-DNA.shtml But how accurate is it?
                        How accurate?

                        It is like with poll results. There were polls suggesting Hillary's win, but until everybody was tested (=voted), it was not known far off they were. And in reality, election polls are more accurate than DNA sampling of populations.

                        With DNA testing, if you are the one who does not fit the pattern, you do not care how accurately the pattern represents general population. Sampling allows for a broad view, shows the trends etc., but a genetic genealogy of an individual can go against the trends. After 1492, the population movement was from Europe to Americas. Is there any genetics heritage of Americans Indians in Europe, from times earlier than the 20th century? Yes, but it is minuscule. Please take a look at stories 1., 4., and 5. in http://www.abroadintheyard.com/surprising-ancestral-origins-revealed-by-dna-testing/



                        You could be seeing matches from the British Isles, because that population is over-represented in the FTDNA database.

                        I do not pretend to know your genealogy, I am only trying to show alternative avenues. The Bible (Old Testament) implies that there were NPEs at that time, and we know that NPEs happen today. There is no reason to expect that it was any different in the meantime. But there are often other explanations possible.


                        Originally posted by Ivar Kristensen View Post
                        From https://isogg.org/wiki/Convergence

                        "Convergence is more likely to be a problem with low-resolution 12-marker and 25-marker matches, but does also occur with 37-marker matches. It is less likely to occur at 67 markers ..."
                        Yes, less likely, but nevertheless it does occur at 67 markers. For example, I am taking care of Y DNA results of a family member, who like you belongs to I2 haplogroup. He has 40+ matches at 67 markers, and they all appear to be irrelevant (that is they appear to be a result of the evolutionary convergence). He and most of his matches upgraded to 111 markers or purchased Big Y. None of his Y-DNA67 matches is matching him in Big Y earlier than 3000 years ago. And he has no matches at 111 markers. There are 12 matches not eliminated yet, and we are waiting for those twelve people to upgrade.


                        Mr. W

                        P.S.
                        He has one Big Y match (he had that match before recent changes, too), but STRs told us that the relationship is from a very distant past: GD=2 at 12 markers, GD=6 at 25 markers, GD=12 at 37 markers...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Another example to think of is the adoption of the mother's family name. This happened a little more frequently than we think and I've seen a number of examples in my own genealogical research, it seems to have happened on a number of occasions.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Some great posts above - eg McCoy and Mr W

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I'm more confused now than when I started.

                              But thank you all for your contributions
                              Last edited by Ivar Kristensen; 27th October 2017, 10:23 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                @Ivar Kristensen - just a lighter side, please do not read when tired...

                                Originally posted by Ivar Kristensen View Post
                                I'm more confused now than when I started.

                                But thank you all for your contributions
                                Thank you for your appreciation!

                                I would not use a word confusion, though. I would use a word closer to enlightenment as people offered to you many different avenues.

                                Nobody can present you with a simple path, like for example
                                1. Purchase Big Y, Y-DNA111, FamilyFinder.
                                2. Wait.
                                3. Realize that your matches did not upgrade. Buy them upgrades.
                                4. Wait.
                                5. End up with proving that you have no matches.
                                6. Wait for any matches to appear.
                                7. Ask in the forum, what it means that you have no matches in Big Y and Y-DNA111, and that FamilyFinder results are 20+ pages of 5th Cousin - Remote Cousin not responding to your e-mail queries...


                                Please ask yourself, would you want somebody to tell you how to allocate your time and resources?


                                Mr. W

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X