Y-37 Matches unknown GG Father

[dagian]

My Grandfather was illigitimate (therefore has his Mother's Surname) so I am trying to find his Father's Surname,and possibly the Father himself. I have taken Y-DNA 37 and FF Tests and just received the first results which show Distance 4 Matches with 2 other testers who have the same Surname (1 at 67 markers and 1 at 111 + FF markers). Is this a strong indication of the Surname I am seeking? I hope that perhaps trying to identify a Paper Trail will help at this early stage (ie looking for a relative (cousin/uncle or other male) of these 2 testers who lived in the same area at the same time as my Grandfather was conceived) - obviously their Tree and my Tree will not show relevant Surnames due to the illigitimacy. Should I take the 67 or 111 test or wait? I am totally new and have yet to start learning interpretation. Any advice would be most welcome.

[Jim Barrett]

The more markers you match with another person the closer the indicate relation. Since one of your matches has 111 marker results I suggest you upgrade to 111 markers.

FTDNA usually has a year end sale.

[rwaldrop]

4 steps at y37 would be a very distant common ancestor. Upgrading to 67 or 111 is in your best interest to see if the matches disappear or get closer. If your great grandmother lived in a rural area using the census to see who her neighbours were and combining that with autosomal matches may help you figure it out faster than waiting for a close ydna relative to show up. In my searching I have found that Ancestry and Ftdna were more useful for autosomal matches than 23andme but the more pools you fish in the better your chance of finding the key match that unlocks the mystery. Test the oldest living relative to get the most out of autosomal testing preferably your grandfather if he is still alive. After you get the oldest relatives results back and look at the matches you can then test a descendant of your great grandmothers siblings to help filter the matches. If you go to dnaadoption there are lots of guides on how to utilize dna to uncover these NPEs in your tree.

[dagian]

Thanks for both suggestions. I am quite elderly myself and therefore my Parents, Grandparents and their Siblings have all passed away and I am working in the dark. I have no contact with any of the other relatives, wherever they may be. Am I correct that taking either 67 or 111 would either confirm the match or otherwise and would indicate possible relationship with the match? I am considering taking the Ancestry test. I have already done a quick search, as suggested, of the relevant Surname living in my Grandmother's area (Lancashire) at that time. Stab in the dark but I have identified a male of the correct age with same Surname who was born in Ireland (as was the other Tester's ancestors). Would be a chance in a billion if it turns out to be the guy - my Grandmother was 16 at that time and the suspect (?!) was 17.

[rwaldrop]

Thanks for both suggestions. I am quite elderly myself and therefore my Parents, Grandparents and their Siblings have all passed away and I am working in the dark. I have no contact with any of the other relatives, wherever they may be. Am I correct that taking either 67 or 111 would either confirm the match or otherwise and would indicate possible relationship with the match? I am considering taking the Ancestry test. I have already done a quick search, as suggested, of the relevant Surname living in my Grandmother's area (Lancashire) at that time. Stab in the dark but I have identified a male of the correct age with same Surname who was born in Ireland (as was the other Tester's ancestors). Would be a chance in a billion if it turns out to be the guy - my Grandmother was 16 at that time and the suspect (?!) was 17.

If you upgrade to 67 or 111 then you will be able to see if the genetic distance gets further or closer away. 4 steps at 37 is the cutoff for what is considered a match at 37. You are looking at 10-20 generations. If at 67 they stay at a 4 then they likely are likely in the correct distance to be in the era of surnames. If a 111 they are still a 4 then you have strong confidence they are the right surname. The other option is to wait for another match to come along at 2 or less distance.

Since you have identified a potential target I suggest creating a tree for this person and then see if you have autosomal matches through these potential ancestors. Ancestry's subscription service make creating trees for potential relatives much easier. You will often have to expand on others matches trees to find the common ancestors.

I originally started here at Ftdna searching for my fathers biological parents. I was able to locate connect about 10 matches from familyfinder to the potential father. Then I tested my father at Ancestry and now have over 150 2nd to 4th cousins identified to common ancestors. Of course I was lucky in that his y67 results had 10 matches almost all with the same surname and several with SNP testing done that correlated to my fathers predicted haplogroup by Nevgen. Then I was further lucky in that there was only one family in the county with the same surname.

[dagian]

Since you have identified a potential target I suggest creating a tree for this person and then see if you have autosomal matches through these potential ancestors.

Great suggestion. I have now created a Tree for my 'suspect'. I have already identified and been in contact with a descendant - a Great Grandaughter of the brother of my target. I am awaiting results of an upgrade to see if he remains a possible match. I had hoped (and still hope) to identify a Male decendant who may be prepared to take a Y-DNA Test but would this female produce a autosomal result that would help me further?

[John McCoy]

Most of the time, maybe 90 percent, third cousins (descendants of a common great-great-grandfather) will be detectable as autosomal matches through the Family Finder test. Whether FTDNA actually estimates that such kits are "third cousins" is another question entirely, but there should be at least one significant shared segment, and often, several such segments.

Finding a match that is consistent with a third cousin relationship doesn't prove your hypothesis, of course -- the relationship could easily be through some other part of your pedigree -- but it's definitely a strong clue. Good luck!

John McCoy
([email protected])

[NCroots]

4 steps at 37 is the cutoff for what is considered a match at 37. You are looking at 10-20 generations. If at 67 they stay at a 4 then they likely are likely in the correct distance to be in the era of surnames.

I have 3 & 4 steps at 37 markers that have remained at 3 & 4 steps at 67 markers, however, the TiP is closer (12 generations at 90% with 37 markers, 12 generations at 97% with 67 markers). I've not yet upgraded to 111 markers. These men all have the same surname which is different from my own. Would this seem to indicate a true relationship within 12 generations?

[spruithean]

I have 3 & 4 steps at 37 markers that have remained at 3 & 4 steps at 67 markers, however, the TiP is closer (12 generations at 90% with 37 markers, 12 generations at 97% with 67 markers). I've not yet upgraded to 111 markers. These men all have the same surname which is different from my own. Would this seem to indicate a true relationship within 12 generations?

I suppose it depends on your haplogroup and what shared SNPs you have as well as novel SNPs.

[NCroots]

I suppose it depends on your haplogroup and what shared SNPs you have as well as novel SNPs.

We are all R-Z253 (no one has tested further downline). They are all descended from the same Irishman who came to Pennsylvania in the 18th century. I am, supposedly, descended from a German who came to Pennsylvania in the 18th century.