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  • Y111 vs Y37 results

    Still trying to learn more about this YDNA.
    Of the 10 matches for my nephew's Y37 test, two are R-BY210 but one of those had the Y111 test while the other only had the Y37 test. Also, three other of his matches which had Y111 done only show as R-M269 which is the result we got with my nephew's test at Y37. My understanding is that R-M269 is a very broad category. Can anyone explain this?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Oldcrone View Post
    Still trying to learn more about this YDNA.
    Of the 10 matches for my nephew's Y37 test, two are R-BY210 but one of those had the Y111 test while the other only had the Y37 test. Also, three other of his matches which had Y111 done only show as R-M269 which is the result we got with my nephew's test at Y37. My understanding is that R-M269 is a very broad category. Can anyone explain this?
    If your nephew took the Y37, his matches are based on 37 STRs. The fact that some of his matches took Y111 is irrelevant because their additional STR results could not be compared to your nephew. Are any of the matches with people with the same surname? If not, unless there is reason to believe that your nephew may be descended from someone with one of the other surnames, you should discount the matches with people with other surnames. Due to convergence mutations, it is quite possible for unrelated people with different surnames to show as a match.

    R-BY210 is a sub-branch of R-M269, which is indeed a huge branch of the european YDNA tree.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Oldcrone View Post
      Still trying to learn more about this YDNA.
      Of the 10 matches for my nephew's Y37 test, two are R-BY210 but one of those had the Y111 test while the other only had the Y37 test. Also, three other of his matches which had Y111 done only show as R-M269 which is the result we got with my nephew's test at Y37. My understanding is that R-M269 is a very broad category. Can anyone explain this?
      The matches who are R-M269 probably have this as a predicted Haplogroup. The match who is R-BY210 has done SNP testing. The number of markers tested is not used in determining the Haplogroup. You could order the stand alone BY210 SNP test, a SNP Pack that includes BY210 or Big Y to determine more information about your Haplogroup.

      When looking at your Y-DNA matches look in the "Terminal SNP" column. If it contains a value that match has done some SNP testing.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Oldcrone View Post
        Still trying to learn more about this YDNA.
        Of the 10 matches for my nephew's Y37 test, two are R-BY210 but one of those had the Y111 test while the other only had the Y37 test. Also, three other of his matches which had Y111 done only show as R-M269 which is the result we got with my nephew's test at Y37. My understanding is that R-M269 is a very broad category. Can anyone explain this?
        If you remember I had explained here that the R-M269 matches very well could be positive for R-BY210 but simply haven't had SNP testing to show it. The people in the match list that also show in the PEI DNA project here that have R-M269 in red haven't had SNP testing and the haplogroup was predicted from the STRs but they haven't had an SNP test for R-M269. The matches with their haplogroup in green have had SNP testing to prove that they are positive for the SNP.

        BY210 has 16 phylogenetic equivalents and since there are only two BY210 people at BigTree here and two BY210 people at YFull here then there is no way to know which SNP out of the phylogenetic equivalents is the youngest. We only know the oldest is about 3,300 years old but the youngest is about 450 years old. Therefore, kit N109286 and kit B2662 have a common ancestor estimated to have lived about 450 years ago.

        To prove that there is a common ancestor in less than 450 years ago your nephew would have to get a BigY test or test positive. Testing all of the phylogenetic equivalents would only prove that the common ancestor is estimated to have lived 450 years ago.

        You could get the R1b-Z198 SNP Pack for your nephew which is $119.00 and less expensive than 4 individual SNP tests or BigY but I have no idea how many of the phylogenetic equivalents to BY210 are included although BY210 is included.

        Getting an upgrade to Y111 for your nephew would show if he has a close match at that level with the people that have had a Y111 test.

        The BY210 person that has had a Y111 test, kit B2662, has a GD of 2 at Y111 with kit 134806 so they definitely share most, if not all, of the SNPs that are phylogenetic equivalent to BY210. There is even a large possibility that they share even more SNPs but since kit 134806 hasn't had a BigY test then there is no way to know that at this moment.

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        • #5
          There are a couple different approaches to this situation.

          One idea is to get as much information as possible in hopes that doing so will clarify the genealogy, by signing up for every available test. But that option can be expensive!

          Another approach is FIRST to clarify the genealogical problem. If, for example, you are trying to determine which of two possible ancestors suggested by the paper trail is yours, you might only be looking for a test that might rule out one of them, at least to start with. For that purpose, a less expensive test might suffice. If you do succeed in ruling out one possibility, then the focus of your research will change, and you will need to evaluate a new set of options for paper trail research, genetic tests, etc.

          For me, the question I want to ask is "how will the test contribute to advancing my genealogical research?"

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          • #6
            Y111 vs Y37 results

            Have been away for a few days so only now say the replies of
            John, Armando, Jim and 'Twiddling Thumbs'.

            Just to clarify - we had my nephew tested in the hopes of gaining clues to the identity of our paternal grandfather (our father was illegitimate). He had 10 matches, 7 of them with the surname Arsenault (or derivites). Of the other 3, 2 were adoptees with fathers suspected to be Arsenault and the third had a sperm donor father; I think his test points to Arsenault. My sister who is his administrator has joined the R-L165 Project and they have placed him in the Arsenault category.

            I have since found out that the two matches showing as R-BY210 have had Y111 and big Y done respectively and I know that these two are the ones that show up on the R-L65 Project as well on YSearch that Armand mentioned. But I still don't understand why 3 of his other matches only show up with R-M269 as a predicted haplogroup when they have also had Y111 done. If we were to spend that kind of money, might his predicted haplogroup also still come back as R-M269?

            John wrote:For me, the question I want to ask is "how will the test contribute to advancing my genealogical research?"

            that's exactly the question I would like to have answered. If these tests can only predict a common ancestor in the range of 450 years, how is it likely to help us find out who my father's unknown father was? Our nephew's Y37 test seems to be pointing to an Arsenault; results of the FF test of myself and two of my sisters show a possible link to an Arsenault family in the Egmont Bay area of Prince Edward Island.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Oldcrone View Post
              But I still don't understand why 3 of his other matches only show up with R-M269 as a predicted haplogroup when they have also had Y111 done. If we were to spend that kind of money, might his predicted haplogroup also still come back as R-M269?
              3 of his other matches have not had SNP testing so they have a predicted haplogroup. The Y111 is an STR test it is not an SNP test. BigY is an SNP test so the people with a BigY test show positive for a downstream SNP in green.

              The people without an SNP test show R-M269 in red in the Y-DNA pages of the projects.

              Since Y111 is an STR test then SNPs aren't tested so they have the same predicted haplogroup given to them from their initial STR test. Your nephew also has a predicted haplogroup.

              The predicted haplogroup is something far upstream from the younger SNPs that can be tested with SNP packs or BigY testing.

              Originally posted by Oldcrone View Post
              John wrote:For me, the question I want to ask is "how will the test contribute to advancing my genealogical research?"

              that's exactly the question I would like to have answered. If these tests can only predict a common ancestor in the range of 450 years, how is it likely to help us find out who my father's unknown father was? Our nephew's Y37 test seems to be pointing to an Arsenault; results of the FF test of myself and two of my sisters show a possible link to an Arsenault family in the Egmont Bay area of Prince Edward Island.
              BigY testing goes down to about 150 years before present if and only if two people that get the test are related in that time frame through the direct paternal line.

              A Y111 test by the same two people would also show them to be closely related in the direct paternal line and is cheaper than BigY but many people have found BigY to be more reliable.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Oldcrone View Post
                But I still don't understand why 3 of his other matches only show up with R-M269 as a predicted haplogroup when they have also had Y111 done. If we were to spend that kind of money, might his predicted haplogroup also still come back as R-M269?
                The only way to get beyond a predicted Haplogroup is by SNP testing. Adding additional STRs will not change your predicted Haplogroup. Upgrading from Y-DNA67 to Y-DNA111 will still give the same predicted Haplogroup.

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                • #9
                  Y111 vs Y37 results

                  Thanks again to Armando and Jim for their replies. I think probably our best bet is to test further for SNPs but we need to decide which to test for. We had been thinking about R-B210 because of the two matches which are in the R-L165 Project but our nephew's top match (which is the one with the sperm donor father) is R-Z198 and he shows up as a genetic distance of 1; the two R-B210 matches show up as genetic distance of 2 and 4 respectively. So which should we test for?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Oldcrone View Post
                    Thanks again to Armando and Jim for their replies. I think probably our best bet is to test further for SNPs but we need to decide which to test for. We had been thinking about R-B210 because of the two matches which are in the R-L165 Project but our nephew's top match (which is the one with the sperm donor father) is R-Z198 and he shows up as a genetic distance of 1; the two R-B210 matches show up as genetic distance of 2 and 4 respectively. So which should we test for?
                    Have you emailed the admin of the L165 project with your situation and questions?

                    The SNP is R-BY210. The GD at 37 markers isn't reliable. A Y111 upgrade would be a lot better than getting individual SNP tests but if you do at least get your nephew the R1b-Z198 SNP Pack. If you get the R-BY210 test for your nephew and he is negative that would tell you that they don't share a common ancestor in at least 450 years but not how many years beyond 450 years. A positive test for R-BY210 would only tell you that your nephew and his R-BY210 matches have a common ancestor in the past 3,300 years. A positive test for R-Z198 would only tell you that your nephew and his R-Z198 match share a common ancestor in the past 4,400 years. It is extremely likely that the R-Z198 match did not get a BigY test or the R1b-Z198 SNP Pack and it is why he doesn't show positive for a younger SNP. Everyone positive for R-BY210 is also positive for R-Z198.

                    BigY discovers novel mutations which is why a TMRCA can be estimated with the results if they match on more than the SNPs in the R-BY210 block at www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=885. For instance the unique mutations for R-BY210 kit N109286 are at http://www.ytree.net/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=587 The only way anyone can get their unique mutations is with an NGS test such as BigY. If your nephew gets a BigY test and matches all of those unique mutations then their common ancestor is from within the past 150 years. Here is an example of people with a TMRCA of 150 years. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L628/

                    If you get the Y111 upgrade for your nephew you would want to ask all of the 37 marker matches that haven't tested out to Y111 to do so. That way you can see which person or people are the closest matches.

                    If you get a BigY test for your nephew you would want to ask the Y37 matches without a BigY test to get one also. That way you can see who is the closest match with BigY.

                    If you do get your nephew a single SNP test get R-BY210.
                    Last edited by Armando; 28 July 2017, 03:10 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Armando View Post
                      Have you emailed the admin of the L165 project with your situation and questions?

                      Have actually done that today, Armando, but thanks for the suggestion.

                      If you do get your nephew a single SNP test get R-BY210.
                      His recommendation, like yours, is that we get R-BY210. Thanks again for all your advice.

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                      • #12
                        get your nephew the R1b-Z198 SNP Pack

                        The R1b-Z198 pack would be the best approach..he could be negative for R-BY210 and thus you would learn more getting the R1b-Z198 SNP Pack , as it would also confirm if you are BY210 and if not would confirm other SNPs to further clarify the haplogroup.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jova99 View Post
                          The R1b-Z198 pack would be the best approach..he could be negative for R-BY210 and thus you would learn more getting the R1b-Z198 SNP Pack , as it would also confirm if you are BY210 and if not would confirm other SNPs to further clarify the haplogroup.
                          I didn't have time to compare the R1b-Z198 pack and Alex's tree until today. The R1b-Z198 SNP pack tests one other SNP in the same block as R-BY210 which is CTS4299. Both of those could be very young so being negative for those two but positive for the upstream SNP BY3219 means possibly her nephew is possibly positive for the other 17 SNPs in the same block as R-BY210. However, a negative result for SNP BY3219 would mean that they don't share any of the 19 SNPs in the R-BY210 block.


                          So yes, if there isn't ever going to be an upgrade to Y111 or a BigY test then the R1b-Z198 SNP pack test can be more helpful than a single test for R-BY210 and for less than the price of 3 SNPs tested individually.
                          Last edited by Armando; 30 July 2017, 11:39 AM.

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