Still stuck at R-M269

[gtc]

In the U106 project, we have two surname relatives whose lowest level common SNP (A570) is estimated by our resident guru to be 1882 AD (best-estimate date) and 95% confidence interval: 1728 AD to 1982 AD.

[gtc]

Yes, my brother is predicted to be R-M269. I've joined his surname project (where almost all of the participants are Americans, and my brother is "ungrouped"), the Ireland Y-DNA project, and the R1b and subclades project.

In those projects, does your brother's haplotype sit amongst any showing as U106 or P312?

[T E Peterman]

I agree that Big Y testing would be silly for two brothers or father/ son combos, or even first cousins.

But when it comes to more distant paper trail relatives, it could be a lot more meaningful than y-str testing will ever be.

If two men have a common ancestor within the last 4 generations, they should have 0 to 1 unshared novel variant. If two men have a common ancestor within the last 8 generations, they should have 1 to 2 unshared novel variants.

One could pinpoint the ancestor who incurred the mutation, by testing say a 3rd patrilineal cousin, a 4th patrilineal cousin, & a 5th patrilineal cousin & so forth. Descent from the man with the mutation could then be inferred by any other person who shared the same novel variant.

Timothy Peterman

[gtc]

Here is the advice to members from a U106 Project Admin (my emphasis):

The way forward for a Big Y tester to make progress down the line of descent below your lowest shared clade result with someone else, is to get other closely related people tested for those singleton SNPs in the hope of creating new even lower shared clades out of them, even further down the line of descent.

[bvlenci]

In those projects, does your brother's haplotype sit amongst any showing as U106 or P312?

In the Vaughan surname project, the largest group is the "ungrouped" people, and the vast majority are predicted R-M269.

Someone on the R1B project told me that, based on the STRs, it's very unlikely that my brother is either U106 or P312. However, he thought it possible that he was DF100.

The Ireland DNA has a very large database, and I keep getting the "uh, oh" message when it tries to load the whole thing at once. I found my brother once, by paging down 500 entries at a time, but now I can't even find him. If I remember correctly, he was in a group of other R-M269 people.

[gtc]

In the Vaughan surname project, the largest group is the "ungrouped" people, and the vast majority are predicted R-M269.

And there are large numbers of FTDNA testers sitting at predicted M269 throughout numerous projects, unfortunately.

Someone on the R1B project told me that, based on the STRs, it's very unlikely that my brother is either U106 or P312. However, he thought it possible that he was DF100.

There are some rough prediction guides for U106/P312 given here:

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#P312_or_U106.3F

Given that P312>L21 is very well represented in Ireland, that may be the front running candidate. But it's only guessing.

I'm not across DF100 (aka CTS4528/S1200). Somebody may have "divined" an STR modal for that by now?

The Ireland DNA has a very large database, and I keep getting the "uh, oh" message when it tries to load the whole thing at once. I found my brother once, by paging down 500 entries at a time, but now I can't even find him. If I remember correctly, he was in a group of other R-M269 people.

Yes, it's huge (6000+ kits). It often times out on me, too.

Have you uploaded his STRs to Ysearch? If so, anything interesting there?

[lgmayka]

Here is the advice to members from a U106 Project Admin (my emphasis):

Yes, but the term closely related is a relative term. He means someone patrilineally related to you within a genealogical timeframe, or otherwise your numerically nearest neighbor based on Y-STRs. But not a brother or father, whose results would be essentially duplicative.

[gtc]

Yes, but the term closely related is a relative term. He means someone patrilineally related to you within a genealogical timeframe,

What do you consider as the minimum distance?

[lgmayka]

What do you consider as the minimum distance?

The Big Y finds roughly one reliable SNP per 150 years of patrilineage, so I would advise against the Big Y if your TMRCA is less than 150 years ago.

[bvlenci]

Since all the projects use the same forms for the YDNA results, it would be nice if they would add a search function to them, and/or some filtering capability. The R1b project is also enormous, and I haven't even succeeded in finding my brother there. I joined it recently, so maybe he hasn't been added yet.

There are some rough prediction guides for U106/P312 given here:

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#P312_or_U106.3F

I had already found that, on Wikipedia, I think, and it seemed unlikely that my brother is either one.

I'm not across DF100 (aka CTS4528/S1200). Somebody may have "divined" an STR modal for that by now?

The person on the R1b project found this on Ysearch, but I haven't been able to find it. He said my brother is an exact match for the 13 modal markers for DF100/CTS4528.

Have you uploaded his STRs to Ysearch? If so, anything interesting there?

No, about the same as the matches on FTDNA, except that there are no matches at all above 12 markers. (On FTDNA, he has one match at 37 markers, genetic distance of 3, but that person must not have added his results to Ysearch.)

[gtc]

The Big Y finds roughly one reliable SNP per 150 years of patrilineage, so I would advise against the Big Y if your TMRCA is less than 150 years ago.

'Reliable' being the operative word in respect of that particular test. Each generation has the capacity to produce new Y mutations. Whether Big Y can detect them is the question.

A TMRCA of 150 years, at 25 or 30 years per generation, equates to 5 or 6 generations from the common ancestor. Hardly what I'd call close relatives.

[gtc]

@bvlenci: Check you private message inbox.

[dna]

Has anyone seen Big Y results from brothers or father/son pair?

W. (Mr.)

[gtc]

@bvlenci: Check your private message inbox for update.

[bvlenci]

A year ago, I had my brother's Y-DNA tested to 67 markers, and his haplogroup was predicted to be R1b1a2 (which was later relabeled as R-M269). All four of our grandparents come from the same small rural area in Northern Ireland, partly from County Fermanagh and partly from County Tyrone.

R-M269 is the most common haplogroup in Ireland, which in parts of Northern Ireland, includes up to 95% of the population. Hoping to find out something a bit more specific, last September I decided to upgrade to 111 markers. I waited almost 7 months (!!!) for the results, which finally arrived yesterday (although I only learned that by checking the website).

After all that time (and all that money), all I've learned is that my brother is still predicted to be R-M269. I've joined a surname project (Vaughan-Vaughn) but my brother seems to be an odd man out there; he doesn't fit in any of the groupings.

I'm not really looking for relatives, as in Ireland almost no one can trace their ancestry back much beyond the mid-19th century, and I have been able to trace my family a bit further than that. What I'm curious about is where they were 400 or 500 years ago. Vaughan is a Welsh surname, but it's found throughout the British Isles. In Ireland, it was often the anglicization of the surname Mahon. I'd like to have an idea as to whether our Vaughans were in Ireland before the "plantation" period, or whether they came to Ireland with some of the 17th century planters, or whether there was an independent emigration of a Welsh family.
....

Barbara Vaughan

This is an update on my old post.

After all this time, I've found a match, distant, who has also tested to 111 markers. The genetic distance is 10 at 111 markers, but interestingly he also has the same surname as my brother, Vaughan, and can trace his family to Ireland, as we can.

Does this really give me any new useful information?

We've been in contact, and both of us are thinking of upgrading to Big Y. However, his hope is to find relatives, and I don't think Big Y will be useful to him for that. My hope is only to have a little more certainty about the origins of our family. I know I can't find anything 100% sure, but I just want some probabiities.

Another thing I don't understand is that this new match has a genetic distance of 6 at 67 markers (and 10 at 111 markers) but doesn't show up at all at 37 markers.