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Still stuck at R-M269

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  • Still stuck at R-M269

    A year ago, I had my brother's Y-DNA tested to 67 markers, and his haplogroup was predicted to be R1b1a2 (which was later relabeled as R-M269). All four of our grandparents come from the same small rural area in Northern Ireland, partly from County Fermanagh and partly from County Tyrone.

    R-M269 is the most common haplogroup in Ireland, which in parts of Northern Ireland, includes up to 95% of the population. Hoping to find out something a bit more specific, last September I decided to upgrade to 111 markers. I waited almost 7 months (!!!) for the results, which finally arrived yesterday (although I only learned that by checking the website).

    After all that time (and all that money), all I've learned is that my brother is still predicted to be R-M269. I've joined a surname project (Vaughan-Vaughn) but my brother seems to be an odd man out there; he doesn't fit in any of the groupings.

    I'm not really looking for relatives, as in Ireland almost no one can trace their ancestry back much beyond the mid-19th century, and I have been able to trace my family a bit further than that. What I'm curious about is where they were 400 or 500 years ago. Vaughan is a Welsh surname, but it's found throughout the British Isles. In Ireland, it was often the anglicization of the surname Mahon. I'd like to have an idea as to whether our Vaughans were in Ireland before the "plantation" period, or whether they came to Ireland with some of the 17th century planters, or whether there was an independent emigration of a Welsh family.

    Per capita, most of my brother's matches (none of which is very close) are from Ireland.

    What I'm pondering now is whether I should just bury this curiosity, or if it's worth spending any more money. If I decide to spend more money, where should I start? Are there some SNP tests that would be useful? Is there an expert who could have a look at my brother's results for the Y-DNA111 and see a good clue?

    My sense is that the Big Y would be useful for someone who has a fairly close match and wants to verify it, but not for someone who seems to have mutations that rule out any known subclade. Am I correct in this?

    If SNP testing is the way to go, how can I determine which ones I should test? I've read that M222+ could establish whether he belongs to a cluster found in the far northwest of Ireland, which, if it's positive, would seem to establish that our Vaughan family is of native Irish stock. Are there others I should include? For example, there is a concentration of Vaughans in County Clare, Ireland (central west). This particular branch were originally called Mahon. Does anyone know of an SNP that would identify this branch?

    Thanks for any help,

    Barbara Vaughan

  • #2
    Rather than exploring every potential SNP under M269 (they number in the hundreds now), it would probably be most prudent just to do the Big Y. With that, you will be done with it. But make sure you do it in conjunction with a haplogroup project (there are several for R1b).

    Timothy Peterman

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    • #3
      R-M269 describes your brother SNPs. The Y-DNA111 test is for STRs. There is no one-to-one correspondence between them. There are ways to accurately predict (guess) SNPs using STRs, but that is only most of the time and only if there are results from the same population available for comparison.

      You are correct in assuming that Big Y is likely the route to take. Situation was the same a year ago, just the benefits of Big Y were not widely understood yet, and of course at that time the number of those who completed testing was very small. (And I can see that Timothy Peterman has just said that, too.)

      I am glad that you mentioned a possibility of your family name changing at some point in the past. Many come to this forum, asking for help, not realizing that it could have happened for quite a number of reasons.

      Good luck with your research!

      W. (Mr.)

      Comment


      • #4
        I actually didn't say that I thought the Big Y was the way to go next. I said that it seemed to me that it would be definitely the way to go if I had some close matches, but this is not our case. We have one match at 37 markers, with a genetic distance of 3, and 150 matches at 12 markers (which I've read don't have any significance, even with a genetic distance of 0). Nine of them are named Vaughan or Vaughn, though, which must mean something, at least statistically.

        I could get a lot of SNP tests for $575. I wouldn't need to test all of them; I could start with a few upstream ones, especially those known to be common in the British isles, and work my way downstream judiciously.

        Am I certain to get a terminal SNP from the Big Y? One of the problems I'm facing is that it seems that very few people in Ireland have got DNA tests and I'm really concerned that I'll spend $575 and still not know anything more than I know now.

        I have to admit that another thing that worries me is the fact that I waited 6 1/2 months to get the Y-111. How long would it take to get the Big Y? Not that I trust any predictions, because the Y111 was supposed to take at most 8 weeks. The chaos and confusion and the miscommunications I've experienced make me wonder if the company is even viable.

        Comment


        • #5
          First, I strongly suggest you join the R1b Project and ask the administrator for an evaluation. You may learn that your 111 markers are indeed enough for a reasonably precise classification. Or not.

          Second, there are some $100-off coupons for the Big Y floating around in project "activity feeds." However, they may all expire on April 15. (That's not entirely clear. Darren, do you know?)

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks, Igmayka. I've just joined the R1b project. I'm glad you provided the link.
            Last edited by bvlenci; 9th April 2015, 11:01 AM. Reason: wanted to put some in a new post

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            • #7
              By the way, is it strange that on my Hapogroup and SNP page, there are none that are in green (tested positive)? There are a lot of "presumed positive" and "tested negative". I also see that the number of SNPs I'd probably have to order would cost more than Big Y. I'm just afraid that no one even remotely related to us has taken the test, in which case my money would just go to aid science.

              If there's a coupon floating around, I'd appreciate some news about it.

              Thanks to all!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bvlenci View Post
                By the way, is it strange that on my Hapogroup and SNP page, there are none that are in green (tested positive)? There are a lot of "presumed positive" and "tested negative". I also see that the number of SNPs I'd probably have to order would cost more than Big Y. I'm just afraid that no one even remotely related to us has taken the test, in which case my money would just go to aid science.
                That is a Haplotree & SNPs page, and that is your haplotree and your SNPs, so at this moment they are only in one of the categories:
                • presumed positive (gold)
                • test available (blue)
                • presumed negative (black)
                There cannot be any
                • tested positive (green)
                • tested negative (red)
                since you did not have any SNP test yet.

                Originally posted by bvlenci View Post
                If there's a coupon floating around, I'd appreciate some news about it.

                Thanks to all!
                Maybe your group would have the right coupon (they are posted daily, the last coupon is on the 16th) https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/activity-feed

                W. (Mr.)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks, I found the coupon on the R1b group activities page. I'm still hesitating because it's an awful lot of money. Does anyone know how long it's currently taking? (Considering that I've just got the results of the Y-111 test I ordered last September.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bvlenci View Post
                    Thanks, I found the coupon on the R1b group activities page. I'm still hesitating because it's an awful lot of money. Does anyone know how long it's currently taking? (Considering that I've just got the results of the Y-111 test I ordered last September.)
                    Page http://www.familytreedna.com/learn/t...-results-take/ has fairly accurate predictions. I am not quoting them here since FTDNA does update them. Big Y results tend to be delivered on schedule.

                    There is a slight problem with an old coupon. Those coupons are single use only. So if anybody has used the discount code, you would get a message that the coupon cannot be used. New coupons are posted automatically around 9-10 AM CDT (Houston timezone).

                    W. (Mr.)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bvlenci View Post
                      I'm still hesitating because it's an awful lot of money.
                      As a lump sum it is but, before Big Y came along, plenty of us spent that much or more speculatively testing individual (i.e. "other people's") SNPs ... many of which turned out to be negative for us.

                      Big Y tests your SNPs, and is better value over the long term.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dna View Post
                        Big Y results tend to be delivered on schedule.
                        I beg to differ.

                        Mine were projected to take 8-10 weeks. They took nearly 7 months. Some of Big Y orders have taken over a year to produce results.

                        I'm not saying Big Y won't be of value in this case, but let's not give the fellow any unrealistic expectations regarding processing times.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sarmat View Post
                          I beg to differ.

                          Mine were projected to take 8-10 weeks. They took nearly 7 months. Some of Big Y orders have taken over a year to produce results.

                          I'm not saying Big Y won't be of value in this case, but let's not give the fellow any unrealistic expectations regarding processing times.
                          Seven months is a long wait. Was it worth it? Have you reached the promised land?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sarmat View Post
                            I beg to differ.

                            Mine were projected to take 8-10 weeks. They took nearly 7 months. Some of Big Y orders have taken over a year to produce results.
                            I know of a fellow who cancelled his Big Y after waiting 9 months and hearing nothing and went to FGC instead. He got his FGC results in around 3 weeks.

                            I'm not saying Big Y won't be of value in this case, but let's not give the fellow any unrealistic expectations regarding processing times.
                            Indeed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                              Seven months is a long wait. Was it worth it? Have you reached the promised land?
                              It got me a prospective terminal SNP, but aside from that, I haven't gotten much utility out of it.

                              I'm not sure it was worth the money. If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably just go with the M458 SNP panel from Yseq.

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